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  • #16
    Originally posted by glamourweaver View Post
    I do think there’s a bit of a contradiction between the narratives of absolute military governance and corporate power. I would put the emphasis on corporate governance via property tax based proportional voting - and then have the FSA military run and directly employed by the contractors. Play up how all of this is cast in terms of property rights and freedom in FSA propaganda.
    Yeah I think I would have preferred either a Megacorp state or a Junta, and not some weird mix of both as I feels it can dilute from the themes of both greatly if not written skillfully.


    It is a time for great deeds!

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    • #17
      I feel like this ignores a lot of context, both of when this setting was initially written, and when it was initially revised.

      Written pre-9/11, and initially revised during the Obama administration makes for a very different environment to be writing than the last couple years.

      That said, you have to make a decisive choice on how to handle one of the present world super powers- there are plenty of takes on it booming and busting, to the point that one of the few "fresh" takes left would be it quietly falling into apathy, mediocrity, and being slowly overtaken while it wallowed in complacency, which would be literally boring, instead of just over-represented. "Poised to make a comeback" doesn't do it for me, nor does it provide any variety to the setting.

      The story of the FSA, a wounded beast succumbing to it's basest instincts to survive, works for me, although I feel like Canada and Mexico get a little punked in the process.

      Re:China- A parting shot would have been indistinguishable from an opening salvo- any action would have called their bluff IMO. It isn't like they made it out unscathed. They are beholden to a system that no one understands and they can't change because of the Aberrants.


      Raksha are my fae-vorite.

      Reincarnation of magnificentmomo.

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      • #18
        I am tempted to comment, but instead I'll just leave this here. This is Lin Wells' memo to Donald Rumsfeld regarding the 2001 Quadrennial Defense Review and the difficulties of predicting the future.

        - C.

        Last edited by Tegyrius; 02-08-2019, 07:43 PM.


        Clayton A. Oliver | Formerly Ubiquitous

        When the half-light starts to rise/And the long gone come back again
        After the shortcuts and the highs/Comes the pain
        And the rain

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        • #19
          I do love the idea of Hawaii as the FSA’s Taiwan. In part because of the irony of Hawaii serving as the last refuge for the US against a plutocratic junta.

          (if you don’t get why that’s ironic, look up the Republic of Hawaii and the Dole Corporation)

          Obviously the dominant Constitution Party asserts their status as the lawful US government, while the opposition Sovereign Party wants to declare Hawaiian independence and reform the indigenous constitutional monarchy.

          There does need to be a superpower patron who while not formally recognizing the “US Government”, still uses the naval port and protects Hawaii from FSA seizure. So... China or Australia?
          Last edited by glamourweaver; 02-08-2019, 09:17 PM.


          Check out my expansion to the Realm of Brass and Shadow

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          • #20
            Originally posted by Eldagusto View Post
            Damnit Misclicking again eating my posts!!! I need to get a laptop oiii!

            Okay China isn’t some mystical alien offshoot of the rest of humanity that works off of a perfect harmonious Hivemind, well not until you get a suitably powerful Nova to pull that off. It’s true they stress collectivist ideals over individualism, and they usually bow to the state, but a huge amount of that has to do with individuals having less power then the state and therefore many find it wise to not turn against it. This gets turned on its head if anyone can become Novas, because China isn’t a Utopia where everyone gets along and achieved Nirvana generations ago. They have people upset with the status quo, remember the massive and extended Protest in Hong Kong half a decade ago? Not to mention those protesting the oppression of the Ughyurs and Tibetans, as well as the plan to forcibly absorb Taiwan. If you now have people given the power to melt trucks with their eyes or rip apart towers with their barehands start popping up indiscriminately across the Population, remember everyone can be Novas, people are no longer as massively overpowered by their government.

            Yea you will have Novas loyal to the state, a lot of them, but now this just means you have super powered individuals both willing to fight to the death for what they believe in all across the Country.

            And Japan isn’t the same as China just because they are Asian. Yes they share a lot similar sensibilities due to Confucian roots, like Filial Piety. But China is much more collectivist, and Japan has a greater degree of personal liberty that the modern Citizen will not be happy giving up. Not to mention their military stance pretty opposite of Japan’s due to almost a Century after losing WWII and being demilitarized, and only worrying about national defense. You won’t see young people being indoctrinated by the state into cheering for the Annexation of another country. Japan has some similar family values and nationalistic Pride as China but that doesn’t mean they are the going to react to Novas the same or that the Novas will react the same.
            I am not supposing China was not attacked, actually it must have been, as well as Europe and most of other countries, but some of them were attacked by powerful novas, that destroyed big chunks of the countries. The rest of the countries were destroyed the same way they are destroyed on a regular war, buildings fall, people suffer lack of food and water, but in the end they recover after some time. Europe was destroyed, but not the same way as US (the space station fall was much later), as well as China, Japan and others. US was not the only one destroyed, Venezuela became a aberrant forrest, Argentina and Saudi Arab countryside were turned on QFZ.

            The point of Aberrant War is that a few thousand aberrant were enough to cause all, they didn’t need even most of the Aberrants, some were fighting for the baselines, some were building colonies, most of them were not powerful è ought to single battle against a smal army. The few that were powerful enough, were so powerful that most of the big QFZ were done by one single Aberrant (one for each QFZ), not big battles of many Aberrants against an Army. So if a country play low they don’t need to be invisible, they just need to keep just one big guy not paying attention, they can get a few powerful novas to try to keep the big ones out of their backyard, thats something China could have done.

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            • #21
              Originally posted by glamourweaver View Post
              I do love the idea of Hawaii as the FSA’s Taiwan. In part because of the irony of Hawaii serving as the last refuge for the US against a plutocratic junta.
              Can’t stop thinking on a surfer, with tribal tattoos and some crazy shades saying “Hang loose, bro, we should accept the votes of the poor, they are good people.”
              Last edited by Mateus Luz; 02-08-2019, 09:42 PM.

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              • #22
                Originally posted by glamourweaver View Post

                A right-wing screed? Voting rights determined by property taxes payed making the Megacorps the law. The military completely conflated with national identity. This is a left-wing view of dystopia, playing off of real far right proposals like rerestricting voting rights to property owners.
                That was a common prediction of the future of American Democracy on the European hard-right from the 1850s to the 1960s. I may never have gotten a job in my field but I earned my Masters in History. Many conventional left-wing European Anti-American tropes started out as Right-wing European commonplaces.

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                • #23
                  Originally posted by Leliel View Post

                  Because the USA being the heroes is a damn cliche that I'm glad was avoided. It also emphasizes how fortunes have turned-the USA has collapsed and been replaced with a hellhole, and Africa is the shining continent on a hill (that hawks the values the FSA abandoned).

                  Besides, this allows one of the more interesting factions in the form of Orgotek, which is pretty much a pean to what is good about capitalism and the American way contrasted to a government that would much rather be the worst. Norca being villains simply because of their FSA scepticism sounds...off. Their whole thing is that they're an insurrection that didn't go wrong and now exists in harmony with the government they propped up.
                  Actually, I can't think of many instances of the USA as a positive place/force in contemporary SciFi. In fact, the evil and/or crippled USA of the future has been the stereotype since the 1970s. Please list for me all the visions of Future USAs that are seen as the unquestioned good guys in contemporary SciFi. The cliche is the Evil/Worthless USA that fits antique European Anti-American Tropes that have been dominant in European literary and philosophical culture since the 1830s. One hundred and ninety years of the same stereotype is enough.

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                  • #24
                    Originally posted by Mateus Luz View Post

                    Can’t stop thinking on a surfer, with tribal tattoos and some crazy shades saying “Hang loose, bro, we should accept the votes of the poor, they are good people.”

                    Maybe the surfer would simply know it was evil. to cheat the poor. Myself, I can't see how they could restrict the franchise so radically without riots. To start with, these people need the military to keep their oligarchy in power, how did they take their votes away? No, a Plutocratic Oligarchy would need to be far more subtle about how they held power and far better at enticing the people to be loyal. Russia, lacking a cultural awareness of democracy is easily persuaded to embrace Putin, and his rule is unstable. Where is this America getting its traditions of deference? Without the mass of the American people silently submitting the FSA simply would dissolve into violence. I know America has faults, as an American I'm required to admit this more than any other group on Earth including and especially those worse than the USA, but we Americans simply aren't a differential or submissive people, even when it might be to our own good. How was this total transformation of American culture achieved?

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                    • #25
                      Yeah it probably would have been more interesting to have America Fractured after they became a Megacorp Junta. That way you could have a Megacorp, a Junta, a Technocracy, an idealized nation that acts a haven for the original government and constitution. Native League and a bunch of others, and everything with a strong theme.


                      It is a time for great deeds!

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                      • #26
                        Originally posted by Astromancer View Post


                        Maybe the surfer would simply know it was evil. to cheat the poor. Myself, I can't see how they could restrict the franchise so radically without riots. To start with, these people need the military to keep their oligarchy in power, how did they take their votes away? No, a Plutocratic Oligarchy would need to be far more subtle about how they held power and far better at enticing the people to be loyal. Russia, lacking a cultural awareness of democracy is easily persuaded to embrace Putin, and his rule is unstable. Where is this America getting its traditions of deference? Without the mass of the American people silently submitting the FSA simply would dissolve into violence. I know America has faults, as an American I'm required to admit this more than any other group on Earth including and especially those worse than the USA, but we Americans simply aren't a differential or submissive people, even when it might be to our own good. How was this total transformation of American culture achieved?
                        Aberrant War.

                        Seriously, that's the answer. The Aberrants torched America to the ground, and everyone was desperate for order to be restored. The FSA government provided it.


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                        • #27
                          I do think it would make sense if the FSA had a figurehead President who is changed every eight years, but the Cabinet never changes, and make all the actual executive decisions.


                          Check out my expansion to the Realm of Brass and Shadow

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                          • #28
                            The main problem I have with the existing write-up is that it implies that the only resistance to the FSA comes from Canada and Mexico. I would expect some rather stiff resistance to the “new order” from within the former borders of the USA itself, with much of the resistance being Survivalists who not only had stockpiled for exactly the sorts of disasters that the Aberrant War brought about, but also tended to have fiercely independent streaks and would not have approved of the Junta taking over, much less sided with them. They wouldn't be the only anti-FSA forces in the former USA; but they would be among the best equipped.

                            Another major source of resistance would come from former military units that don't recognize the FSA as the legitimate government of the United States.

                            Also, the earlier sections (in particular, the Military Saviors and the Rise of the Military-Corporate Complex sections) could benefit from the inclusion of some names. As written, there's an unspoken implication that the way things developed were almost predestined, given the circumstances. The sections speak of “the military”, “the corporations”, and even “Christianity” as collectives with minds of their own. Instead, you need people like the Reverend Nehemiah Scudder (representing Christianity Gone Wrong) and similar figures in the military and corporations who likewise co-opted and corrupted those factions.

                            The end result is the same, but leaves more room for a more diverse opposition to the FSA, suggesting the possibility of, say, sections of the military going rogue with the rise of the FSA and abandonment of the Constitution, or corporations (besides Orgotek) that disapprove of the new state of affairs and help finance the resistance, or a Christian underground that sees the “state-sponsored” version of Christianity as a perversion of the faith — rather than the current approach that implies that if you're in a corporation, the military, or the Christian faith in America, you're on the FSA's side.
                            Last edited by Dataweaver; 02-09-2019, 04:26 AM.


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                            • #29
                              The question, as I see, is why would anyone move to FSA to became less than a person. If think that the government or the mega corps are providing a proper quality of life to the citizens and probably for second class citizens too (otherwise they would move to Australia or South America), they can be pacified by this and some brain washing media. That’s the regular explanations to most Cyberpunk settings.
                              But it’s is implied somehow that there are still people moving to FSA... it means that FSA can, not only provide some quality of live to their citizens, but also to the immigrants that see it as a good place to live before they chose to go there. The USA today, even with some anti-immigrant movements, receives a lot of people from other countries for 2 reasons, their original countries are far worse than poverty on a 1st world country and USA show itself to the world as a great place to live.

                              Where are this immigrants coming from? Why would they like to move to a place where they will worth nothing? What kind of work they do in FSA that there is no robot to do? Clean pools, bathrooms, offices? Sell tacos?

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                              • #30
                                Originally posted by Dataweaver View Post
                                The main problem I have with the existing write-up is that it implies that the only resistance to the FSA comes from Canada and Mexico. I would expect some rather stiff resistance to the “new order” from within the former borders of the USA itself, with much of the resistance being Survivalists who not only had stockpiled for exactly the sorts of disasters that the Aberrant War brought about, but also tended to have fiercely independent streaks and would not have approved of the Junta taking over, much less sided with them. They wouldn't be the only anti-FSA forces in the former USA; but they would be among the best equipped.

                                Another major source of resistance would come from former military units that don't recognize the FSA as the legitimate government of the United States.

                                Also, the earlier sections (in particular, the Military Saviors and the Rise of the Military-Corporate Complex sections) could benefit from the inclusion of some names. As written, there's an unspoken implication that the way things developed were almost predestined, given the circumstances. The sections speak of “the military”, “the corporations”, and even “Christianity” as collectives with minds of their own. Instead, you need people like the Reverend Nehemiah Scudder (representing Christianity Gone Wrong) and similar figures in the military and corporations who likewise co-opted and corrupted those factions.

                                The end result is the same, but leaves more room for a more diverse opposition to the FSA, suggesting the possibility of, say, sections of the military going rogue with the rise of the FSA and abandonment of the Constitution, or corporations (besides Orgotek) that disapprove of the new state of affairs and help finance the resistance, or a Christian underground that sees the “state-sponsored” version of Christianity as a perversion of the faith — rather than the current approach that implies that if you're in a corporation, the military, or the Christian faith in America, you're on the FSA's side.

                                I never saw the survivalists as a real force, but yes, the FSA isn't their kind of fascism. I certainly see military groups that reject the Junta's rule as a force of resistance. The revolt of troops loyal to the US Constitution would be a logical reason why Hawaii and some other areas might successfully rebel and form separate nations upholding the old democracy.

                                I certainly agree that the FSA would always face a crisis of legitimacy and thus there would always be a broad resistance.

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