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[Æon] Armor in Trinity and Aeon

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  • #16
    Originally posted by Graylion View Post

    Excellent example, thank you very much. A few more questions and clarifications based on your example.

    The Attack
    * I have read maybe more Trinity items then Scion but I am trying to follow both.
    * On one hand they stress the dice pools not changing (except momentum) for ease of play
    * On the other hand Trinity seems to blow up the ranged attacks with a different skill+attribute pairing at almost each band.
    * I understand the concept that many attributes can be applied in a variety of ways
    * This seems to run counter to the dice pools not changing, ease of play and character sheet real estate. Thoughts?
    * As I understand the 3e weapon enhancement would not apply if no successes were rolled.

    Defense and armor is the largest area I am wobbling on.
    * In some sections I have seen it listed as a static number and others as a dice pool?
    * I assume this is for the round, so he would roll this defense each round?
    * Would he roll it each time he was attacked?
    * Does it stand for the round, rolled only once?
    * Does it deplete with multiple attackers?

    Injury Stunts and Armor
    * So the Soft Armor Tag of 1 sets the value of the Cause Damage Stunt to 1?
    * So without the soft armor tag if you succeed the cause damage stunt is free?
    * So the hard armor grants a Injury Box of -0?
    * This would seem to represent armor taking a lot of damage very quickly, not sure how taht feels yet.
    * I assume this hard armor box gets restored when you repair it, between scenes or in downtime.
    * So the feint for next round provides a +2e for an ally or himself, or his choice?
    What I am going to say now is what I think and what looks like to be what was discussed on several threads.

    About changing dicepool. I think what they mean was no multiple rolls per round, you roll once and all came from that pool. They say it’s possible to combine any skill with any attribute according to the needs.

    The enhancements caused by any source are not used to go thru difficulty, and are added only in case you have been successful. I think it’s nice, there is a chance of fail on any roll, even when you have huge enhancements.

    Player character defence is dinamic, NPC have static defence.
    You can assume you keep last turn defence, but as there are a few stunts that let you move around that use defence roll successes. On multiple attackers on same round, I would keep the roll so you don’t have chance to move the entire battlefield to avoid being hit, in this case you use the dodge to all the attackers, but can move only once a turn, or once a success invested.

    Free cause injury stunt, yes, but only one injury per round (except heavy weapons and critical).

    Hard armor boxes have no penality and add no momentum. It recharges every scene, like if you used first aid repaisnon it. Good for gaming, bad for explanation as I see. But looks like there are less hits than I would expect, when zoneais thinking about the example above, I was expecting more successes on the rolls, so 5 dice you probably get 1 or 2 success, and it’s an average person which average skill. When I used to play VtM the number of successes used to be higher, as we keep most difficulties between 6 and 7, but 8 is a lot.

    Feint gives +e to anyone you wish that is participating on the battle, you can also build a flow of +e to a character to make sure he will hit hard in the end, but you must choose when you use the successes, so no “it’s for the next guy that hit”.


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    • #17
      Originally posted by Mateus Luz View Post
      The enhancements caused by any source are not used to go thru difficulty, and are added only in case you have been successful. I think it’s nice, there is a chance of fail on any roll, even when you have huge enhancements.
      Enhancements apply as soon as you roll even a single success, and are used towards buying off Difficulty and Complications. You don’t have to overcome difficulty before you get to add your Enhancement.


      Writer. Developer. World of Darkness | Chronicles of Darkness | The Trinity Continuum

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      • #18
        Originally posted by Bunyip View Post

        Enhancements apply as soon as you roll even a single success, and are used towards buying off Difficulty and Complications. You don’t have to overcome difficulty before you get to add your Enhancement.
        Do you have to have at least 1 success? So if you score 0 successes do you add the +3e Katana or is it a failure?

        Thank you and best regards.



        Roleplaying not Rollplaying or Ruleplaying
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        • #19
          Originally posted by Bunyip View Post

          Enhancements apply as soon as you roll even a single success, and are used towards buying off Difficulty and Complications. You don’t have to overcome difficulty before you get to add your Enhancement.
          Good to know, easier to accomplish some tasks and reduce chance of loosing all the feints the team gathered.

          I had in mind success, not 1 success. It makes sense, as some times the problem is just the difficulty, no stunts or complications, and the enhancement would make it easier.


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          • #20
            Originally posted by Graylion View Post

            Do you have to have at least 1 success? So if you score 0 successes do you add the +3e Katana or is it a failure?

            Thank you and best regards.
            If your dice roll 0 successes, you fail. Enhancement isn’t applied.

            But if your dice roll any successes, you add Enhancement and then start buying off Difficulty and purchasing stunts.


            Writer. Developer. World of Darkness | Chronicles of Darkness | The Trinity Continuum

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            • #21
              Enhancement bonuses never apply if you didn't score any successes in your actual dice roll.

              Defense is a static number that can be modified. Normally it's 1, but there are edges or gifts or psi powers that modify that static number. Each turn of combat a character can use a defensive action to buy stunts that can modify the defense. The defense bonus stays for the whole round. You don't roll per attack.

              Buying the inflict injury stunt is a cost of zero plus the target's soft armor or other modifiers (some abilities say they raise this cost without calling themselves soft armor, possibly to separate themselves from armor penetration abilities). In the core it says shooting attacks cost 1+soft armor but I believe someone said in another thread here that it is incorrect and should be the same as close combat (zero+soft armor)

              I suppose you could look at hard armor as a -0 injury box if that helps, but personally I'd consider it separate from injuries entirely. If something ignores armor like an electrical or sonic attack I wouldn't let you use your hard armor box to defend against it.

              Hard armor seems to be an abstract narrative effect. Your armor is so tough that it can sometimes protect you completely from harm. The number of boxes seems to represent how many times it can do that per scene. It's not necessarily permanent damage to the armor. According to p124 of the core the hard armor boxes clear at the end of the scene. No mention of repair. Instead of escalating the soft armor score to levels that make you near-invulnerable all the time (like a bunch of Psi powers do), hard armor is a simple way to add that extra protection without blowing up the numbers to boring combat levels.

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              • #22
                Also remember that soft armor only makes it harder to buy damaging stunts. Some manoeuvres allow you to damage people who might be seemingly impervious otherwise.

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                • #23
                  Thank you for the great answers. I think I am suffering reading several versions as the rules morph and take hold.

                  Best regards



                  Roleplaying not Rollplaying or Ruleplaying
                  Current Focus
                  Storypath & Storypath to Run CoD, VtR, WtF, MtA
                  Dungeons & Dragons 5th Edition

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                  • #24
                    Originally posted by werlynn View Post
                    I suppose you could look at hard armor as a -0 injury box if that helps, but personally I'd consider it separate from injuries entirely. If something ignores armor like an electrical or sonic attack I wouldn't let you use your hard armor box to defend against it.

                    Hard armor seems to be an abstract narrative effect. Your armor is so tough that it can sometimes protect you completely from harm. The number of boxes seems to represent how many times it can do that per scene. It's not necessarily permanent damage to the armor. According to p124 of the core the hard armor boxes clear at the end of the scene. No mention of repair. Instead of escalating the soft armor score to levels that make you near-invulnerable all the time (like a bunch of Psi powers do), hard armor is a simple way to add that extra protection without blowing up the numbers to boring combat levels.
                    That’s important. Hard armor just protect against some kinds of attacks, if it is from a different kind the injury caused is on your boxes, not on the armor.

                    I honestly like the way the hard armor works, from game aspects it’s really nice and simple. The isssue is it’s hard to tell when an armor from real life’s is hard or soft, let’s say a Kevlar jacket, it’s easy to say it’s bullet proof and impact resistant, you can even say it has a good soft armor, as it’s capable of stopping low calliper shots with easy. But, is it hard or just have a good soft? Hard to tell (pun intended)...


                    House Rules - The Basics - House Rules for Trinity Continuum
                    Fists of Flux - Inspired and Powered Martial Arts for Talents
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                    • #25
                      Originally posted by Mateus Luz View Post

                      That’s important. Hard armor just protect against some kinds of attacks, if it is from a different kind the injury caused is on your boxes, not on the armor.

                      I honestly like the way the hard armor works, from game aspects it’s really nice and simple. The isssue is it’s hard to tell when an armor from real life’s is hard or soft, let’s say a Kevlar jacket, it’s easy to say it’s bullet proof and impact resistant, you can even say it has a good soft armor, as it’s capable of stopping low calliper shots with easy. But, is it hard or just have a good soft? Hard to tell (pun intended)...
                      I’d give the armor the hard tag pretty freely. 1 hard armor seems pretty common and not related to physical hardness or rigidity. Even a leather jacket has it, but only vs impacts (like falling off a motorcycle). Only chain mail seems to have more in the examples.

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                      • #26
                        Originally posted by Bunyip View Post
                        My assumption when writing the psi rules is that different sources do. I don’t know if the intention is for multiple levels of the same source to stack - like wearing a heavier armor over a lighter suit, but my intention was that if your Legions trooper absolutely can wear armored gear, overcoat it with Sheath, then wrap themselves is a nice perikinetic skin on top of that. They’ll need it when the Aberrants come.
                        Could I get a clarification on this assumption? How do Perikinetic Shields interact? Can you put a Kinetic Shield on an Energy Shield on a Bulk Shielding? Or is that too overlapping/silly?


                        ---------------------------------------------
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                        Refugee from the 3rd Great Edition Wars of D&D.
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                        • #27
                          Originally posted by Yue Ryong View Post

                          Could I get a clarification on this assumption? How do Perikinetic Shields interact? Can you put a Kinetic Shield on an Energy Shield on a Bulk Shielding? Or is that too overlapping/silly?
                          Perikinetic shields of the same ‘wavelength’ don’t overlap. For one dot, you can put up a kinetic shield, 2-dots you can do the same on yourself with an energy shield — these will overlap because they’re different. With Bulk Shielding you’re not just limited to yourself and can project these shields around others as well as yourself, but you can’t double this up with your own shield — one or the other.

                          I’m also inclined to say that you can’t have multiple PKs bulk shielding each other with overlapping shields, but I’d need to crunch the numbers a little to see if that’s something the Legions would need to realistically withstand powerful Aberrant assaults.

                          I’d also speculatively say (as a musing, not backed up by anything in print) that Perikinetic shields of different Size Scale might be able to overlap — if you mounted a bioapp PK shield generator on a spaceship, you’d benefit from it taking the hits of the big stuff from other ships, and your lower Scale personal shield would help your survive the ship breaking apart around you.


                          Writer. Developer. World of Darkness | Chronicles of Darkness | The Trinity Continuum

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                          • #28
                            I'm with Bunyip, my assumption has always been that both hard and soft armor stack, except for types and cases, which as specifically mentioned as not stacking. It only makes sense to me that if you're wearing armor, are protected by a perikinetic (or whatever) bubble, and are riding in an armored vehicle, you should be *really* hard to damage by anything that your armor stops.

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                            • #29
                              If 2 PKs wanted to team up to make a stronger shield I’d probably make it a teamwork action or use the combining psi powers rules instead of layering. Layering I’d say strongest applies.

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                              • #30
                                That’s actually what I used to think too, but no, if you have 2 PKs they can double-bouble the entire team...

                                Honestly I didn’t try it yet, I guess it works fine against Aberrants, but makes it impossible for regular people to stand any chance...


                                House Rules - The Basics - House Rules for Trinity Continuum
                                Fists of Flux - Inspired and Powered Martial Arts for Talents
                                Tomes of Inspiration - Rituals and Dark Magic in Fists of Flux

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