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  • Causing worse damage

    I was discussing about the system with a friend, he is used to the WoD system and it was quite hard to explain him that a you cause a injury of the lowest kind available unless the target accept to get a worse condition. The talk was long, some good examples were used, snipers hitting hard, werewolves fighting vampires, novas quantum bolts from different levels, lots of things, and now I don’t like the idea of how it works on Storypath... Am I weak? Maybe... Is my faith in the system gone? No! I have an idea to make it work...

    Causing 1 Injury per attack (except rare conditions) is the objective, but I want to make it possible for the attacker to hurt the target really bad if he have enough successes.
    For each 2 additional successes invested on Cause Injury stunt, you jump to the next free box of Injury from the target (not next kind of injury, next FREE box) until you get to the point you take out the target with one hit if adds enough to jump all the targets free boxes +1.
    Example
    Target has soft armor 1 and his injuries are like this [x][ ][ ][ ]-[TO]
    You hit the target and have 5 successes after defence.
    If you use 1 success (because of soft armor) you leave the target like this [x][x][ ][ ]-[TO]
    If you use 3 successes you leave him like this [x][ ][x][ ]-[TO]
    And if you use 5 successes you leave him like this [x][ ][ ][x]-[TO]
    To take him out with one hit you would need 7 successes as TO is the next free. But you have not enough successes, so you use all 5 successes.
    Next round you got 3 successes to use in Inflic Injury, so you leave him like [x][ ][x][x]-[TO]
    And in the third round you have 3 successes again, taking him out as TO is the next free after the first free.

    Using this system Critical Injury can be used to make a second Injury, or you can use the 4 successes to jump 2 free boxes.

    It covers aiming on the soft parts of hard armors, as you jump the armor boxes with 2 extra successes (4 If hard 3).

  • #2
    Your friend is comparing apples to cucumbers. This is not a gritty horror game or a simulation. All characters are not remotely created equal. It’s a narrative action adventure game. Not being able to just one-shot a significant character is working as intended. It’s 100% on genre.

    In the action and adventure movie/TV genre main characters don’t get ganked. Period. Everyone around them could be, but that’s because they’re not main characters so they’ve got one injury box. If somebody important gets killed then it’s a story decision, which is represented in the game by the Player of the character choosing that condition. The sniper gets a dead-on heart shot against Person In A Hat, but due to a last minute movement by Joe Protagonist or wind shift or sudden sun glare Joe gets grazed or maybe just startled and stressed by a near miss even on the identical die roll, unless Joe’s player brought their new replacement character they planned to switch to.

    If you want a werewolf to tear through disposable vampires make them nameless mook vampires with one box to check. The nova’s quantum bolts probably have scale allowing more damage potential, but it’s not that necessary because again the foes they’re meant to mow down will probably have one injury box. You could decide that the sniper gets scale when sniping because they’re that good of a sniper so they can potentially buy more injuries so they’re more likely to do a lot of harm to important characters but they’re still most likely to just severely injure anyone important.

    The feel of your game is governed by how often you use minions with one injury box and whether you do things like give that sniper scale or decide all guns get scale.

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    • #3
      Was wondering about that myself. Your argument makes it make sense for me now.

      Comment


      • #4
        I got your point, the issue is not about fighting regular people, it’s about a fight between the Hero and the Villain. I actually went thru all that about fighting mobs, rules for fast combat (that was accepted well). About the killing part also I agree completely, if it’s not about killing nobody dies, unless there is a bad luck (and the master decides so) or if the character decides to kill the taken out target.

        The point is when the Kung Fu Monk is fighting the Master Samurai. If you don’t have this option, the game is about hitting more often than hittin harder. Of corse there are options, Grapple, Disarm, sunder, etc, but hitting harder is the usual end of most fights.

        I didn’t went thru in the original post, but the idea of the +2 from scalding up that was my base for this, the attack from a higher scale don’t allow a second injury, but make it hit harder, causing a worse injury with a direct hit (excess of successes, and you have 2 bonus of them).

        Anyway, it’s my D&D / Werewolf mind going crazy about dealing damage and surviving. I didn’t play Storypath properly yet, so I am not sure how well it goes, but what I noticed on my tests is that successes are few and any +1 enhancement is VERY welcome, and must give advantage.

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        • #5
          Originally posted by Mateus Luz View Post
          ,,,but hitting harder is the usual end of most fights.
          Is it though?

          I mean, in the genres Trinity tries to emulate, where is this the case? Superheroes/comics? Space Opera? High octane action? Kung-fu fighting? All of these are the exact opposite. The big fight at the end is a drawn out affair with lots of hits by each side. Even lightsaber duels in Star Wars somehow have glancing blows in the big fights despite them normally just mowing people down.

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          • #6
            If you’re fighting a villain who is comparable to a PC, then no you don’t get to wreck them in one shot. That seems to be working properly. You can describe trying to hit them as hard as you want and that makes sense, but if they’re your equal then they’re able to dodge, block, and deflect (as a narrative description of why you dealt the injury level they picked, not their defense roll) just as well as you and reduce your bone-breaking hit to a “whew, I barely kept you from breaking my ribs, that was a close one.”

            Scaling up does both. You can buy more injuries and get the bonus, which also helps you afford crits or overcome complications.

            Describing what you roll instead of hoping that you roll what you describe is probably important too. It’s an issue I see a lot and am guilty of doing too much. State your intent and what you want to achieve, handle he mechanics, then do the cool colorful description of what your character actually did. Now whatever those extra stunts you bought are, they were intended all along by your highly competent character instead of lucky accidents. It’s an important thing in systems like this one (2d20 is another example) where a lot of the net effect of your action depends on those extra successes.

            Buying those enhancements and complications when you can’t afford multiple injuries is core to a kung fu movie fight. You’re both highly skilled so it’s important to get the opening for that devastating killing blow. If you didn’t roll enough successes to do all the harm you meant to then describing that your attack was a feint to draw them into a hold or off balance for your next attack is now a deliberate cool kung fu movie fight thing that your character definitely did on purpose. Now do they stay off balance or do the use their own successes to remedy that complication? That seems totally right for action movie fights against a significant character.

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            • #7
              Originally posted by Heavy Arms View Post

              Is it though?

              I mean, in the genres Trinity tries to emulate, where is this the case? Superheroes/comics? Space Opera? High octane action? Kung-fu fighting? All of these are the exact opposite. The big fight at the end is a drawn out affair with lots of hits by each side. Even lightsaber duels in Star Wars somehow have glancing blows in the big fights despite them normally just mowing people down.
              Ok... I got it, but in this case the critical hit stunt is as silly as is my suggestion. If, in the end the decision of how bad was the hit is up to the Storyguide, critical hit to cause 2 Bruised conditions is far less meaningful than a normal hit that the SG decided that caused Maimed because it was part of the plot. The SG already have all the possible plot twists, we can give the right to the player to decide how hard he wants to hit if he have enough successes. If the SG wants an specific player to finish the target, it’s his problem, just put him the the position and hope for the best, or plot twist the s**t out of the story...

              What I am suggesting is more like a gradual critical than one shoting, to one shot a Stamina 2 (that is not a grunt) you would need to hit him and have extra 6 successes (3 boxes), that’s a lot. If you build some feints to do an nice one shot this way, it would be fun too, more like a Lightsaber fight, you try to hit, and start distracting the target until you cut the target in half (or cut a hand off, as it is had more popular).

              For a regular combat, unless you can keep jumping boxes all the turns, you would probably need to hit as many times as usual before you can take out the target. As you jump some boxes, you must keep critical hitting to leave the box unused, any non critical will fill the empty box and not help the injuries to get worse. The only advantage of jumping boxes, if you can’t keep it frequent enough, is to cause a bad injury earlier, gaining some advantage in combat and maybe encouraging the target to leave early, what can be done by narrating it and hope the SG to accept it.
              Last edited by Mateus Luz; 02-26-2019, 05:35 PM.

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              • #8
                The problem of scaling is we pretend it’s the only thing that matter. The Kung Fu Master fight grunts or another Kung FunMaster, but it’s not the case. A character with a dice pool of 8 dice is far superior the other that has a dice pool of 3, but they are in the same scale.

                The Kung Fu Master can be rolling 8 dice against a 3 dice apprentice, if you put the master on a different scale, the apprentice became a grunt. But the apprentice is learned, not much, but is learned. He can defend himself and hold a few punches from the master, but he will not win the fight, and that’s the situation I am trying to focus.
                The Master punch a Maimed condition in the first punch, but the apprentice may be able to standup prepare for a better defence (full defence) and hope for the best. If you are not using some kind of rules on how it happened, a bad SG may choose to make the apprentice to kick a Maimed condition in the Master in the first round just because the apprentice player said it was a precise punch on the face, but it took only one success.
                Last edited by Mateus Luz; 02-26-2019, 05:53 PM.

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                • #9
                  Originally posted by werlynn View Post
                  ...
                  Describing what you roll instead of hoping that you roll what you describe is probably important too. It’s an issue I see a lot and am guilty of doing too much. State your intent and what you want to achieve, handle he mechanics, then do the cool colorful description of what your character actually did. Now whatever those extra stunts you bought are, they were intended all along by your highly competent character instead of lucky accidents. It’s an important thing in systems like this one (2d20 is another example) where a lot of the net effect of your action depends on those extra successes.
                  ...
                  Well said!

                  I love RPGs, D&D, CoD, VtR, MtA, WtF and many more. But I have seen many VtR/WtF game become Rollplaying instead of Roleplaying.

                  * Gangrel, Physical Intensity, Coil of the Wyrm, Frenzy, with Fighting Styles sacrificing Defense tossing a bag of dice.

                  * Werewolf Rahu Blood Talons, Frenzy, Gifts, Sacred Hunt, 8-Again, Rote tossing bags of dice.


                  I am of course stacking these very heavy knowing this is not every character every session, but too many which splits the ST's focus between controlling the power level, and writing stories.

                  At some point the health track buckles under the weight of dice at about a rate of 1 success per 2-3 dice. Storypath needed to happen.
                  Last edited by Graylion; 02-26-2019, 10:18 PM.



                  Roleplaying not Rollplaying or Ruleplaying
                  Current Focus
                  Storypath & Storypath to Run CoD, VtR, WtF, MtA
                  Dungeons & Dragons 5th Edition

                  Comment


                  • #10
                    Originally posted by Mateus Luz View Post
                    The problem of scaling is we pretend it’s the only thing that matter. The Kung Fu Master fight grunts or another Kung FunMaster, but it’s not the case. A character with a dice pool of 8 dice is far superior the other that has a dice pool of 3, but they are in the same scale.

                    The Kung Fu Master can be rolling 8 dice against a 3 dice apprentice, if you put the master on a different scale, the apprentice became a grunt. But the apprentice is learned, not much, but is learned. He can defend himself and hold a few punches from the master, but he will not win the fight, and that’s the situation I am trying to focus.
                    The Master punch a Maimed condition in the first punch, but the apprentice may be able to standup prepare for a better defence (full defence) and hope for the best. If you are not using some kind of rules on how it happened, a bad SG may choose to make the apprentice to kick a Maimed condition in the Master in the first round just because the apprentice player said it was a precise punch on the face, but it took only one success.
                    I am still new to SP and the rules are several versions of varied previews.

                    Here is my assumption

                    Student
                    3d attacks (1 success)
                    2d defense (1+0 = 1 defense)

                    Master
                    8d Attack (2 successes)
                    4d Defense (1+1 defense)

                    On a purely math run counting 1 success per 3 dice.
                    * the master goes first on initiative
                    * the master always hits
                    * The master has 1 stunt after damage each round
                    * the student always misses
                    * Fight should be over in three rounds or less especially counting injury penalty.
                    * Keeping in mind that the master could roll really well doing extra damage or the student could get a lucky shot in.

                    I know nothing ever runs as planned and weird things happen but the outcome is weighted to the higher dice pool.

                    I also realize that with enhancements, stunts, weapons, armor, momentum it amplifies all of this.

                    Just my current understanding.

                    Best regards



                    Roleplaying not Rollplaying or Ruleplaying
                    Current Focus
                    Storypath & Storypath to Run CoD, VtR, WtF, MtA
                    Dungeons & Dragons 5th Edition

                    Comment


                    • #11
                      Originally posted by Graylion View Post
                      Student
                      3d attacks (1 success)
                      2d defense (1+0 = 1 defense)

                      Master
                      8d Attack (2 successes)
                      4d Defense (1+1 defense)

                      On a purely math run counting 1 success per 3 dice.
                      * the master goes first on initiative
                      * the master always hits
                      * The master has 1 stunt after damage each round
                      * the student always misses
                      * Fight should be over in three rounds or less especially counting injury penalty.
                      * Keeping in mind that the master could roll really well doing extra damage or the student could get a lucky shot in.

                      I know nothing ever runs as planned and weird things happen but the outcome is weighted to the higher dice pool.

                      I also realize that with enhancements, stunts, weapons, armor, momentum it amplifies all of this.

                      Just my current understanding.

                      Best regards
                      Your assumptions are partially right.
                      The master will most probably hit, if he have some extra edges or tricks (that’s what makes Storypath different from WoD), he can have 2 or 3 extra successes (from enhancements).
                      The student will most probably hit too, even without the edges he will get 1 success enought to at least feint and maybe Hirt the Master next round (suppose the master have edges to avoid damage)

                      The student can increase his defence by choosing a defencive stance, in this case he would roll for dice to defence, and probably get defence 2 or maybe 3. It means the master will hit him anyway, but a little less hard.

                      My point goes here, this extra effort form the student means something, cut out 1 success from the master pool is relevant, and if the master is just going after putting the student down as fast as possible, the action of the student is enought to hold maybe another round, but not on regular rules. A fast fight would end before the master could gather the extra for successes for a critical, but he could put a Injuried condition on the student on the first round and the student would be unable to even increase his defence (depending on what’s going to be the complication). The master put the student on a bad situation on the fists round instead of knocking him out on the 3rd, what’s going to be narrated can be done by rules...

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                      • #12
                        Originally posted by Mateus Luz View Post
                        The problem of scaling is we pretend it’s the only thing that matter. The Kung Fu Master fight grunts or another Kung FunMaster, but it’s not the case. A character with a dice pool of 8 dice is far superior the other that has a dice pool of 3, but they are in the same scale.

                        The Kung Fu Master can be rolling 8 dice against a 3 dice apprentice, if you put the master on a different scale, the apprentice became a grunt. But the apprentice is learned, not much, but is learned. He can defend himself and hold a few punches from the master, but he will not win the fight, and that’s the situation I am trying to focus.
                        To a true master, an apprentice is a grunt. If that master were to go to another school and attempt to steal their scrolls of knowledge, the school would send all of its apprentices at him en masse. It would be a grunt-fighting scene. He'd take out at least one with every strike, often times kicking one apprentice into another to take two down at once, getting them to punch and kick each other, etc. When he gets to the instructors who are not yet masters, he'd face a couple at a time, and they'd take a couple of hits to take down each. Finally, he'd face the master of the school, and it would be a knockdown, drag out fight with lots of strikes connecting back and forth.

                        Comment


                        • #13
                          Originally posted by Florin View Post

                          To a true master, an apprentice is a grunt. If that master were to go to another school and attempt to steal their scrolls of knowledge, the school would send all of its apprentices at him en masse. It would be a grunt-fighting scene. He'd take out at least one with every strike, often times kicking one apprentice into another to take two down at once, getting them to punch and kick each other, etc. When he gets to the instructors who are not yet masters, he'd face a couple at a time, and they'd take a couple of hits to take down each. Finally, he'd face the master of the school, and it would be a knockdown, drag out fight with lots of strikes connecting back and forth.
                          What if the player character is the apprentice and decided to stand against the invading master before the others arrive?

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                          • #14
                            Most likely, he'll get taken out. Just because you're the star of the story doesn't mean you can stand in front of a freight train and expect to stop it. However, what he should be doing is using all of his defensive abilities to stretch the fight out as long as possible. The drama in the scene isn't, "Will I defeat the master?" The drama is, "Can I delay him long enough?"

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                            • #15
                              That’s exactaly the point. He can’t defeat the Master, but holding him for a few rounds may be possible. But the master on the other side what’s to beat him down and run to avoid a long fight against tens of apprentices and maybe a master.

                              Than the master will try to crit as soon as possible to put him down. My option is to be used by the master to force the apprentice to give up before taken down and to allow the apprentice gets a luck punch (a 3 success roll, not a 5 success roll) and deal a Injury instead of a bruise, forcing the master to slow down.

                              I am not questioning the rules or the theme, I just want to establish a threshold of when you can’t say it was a weak hit, not needing to be critical. You can even say it replace the critical stunt, just forcing a worse condition, instead of multiple injuries with a single hit.

                              I am not trying to convince you of using it, I think I need to test it and would be happy if someone else help me.

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