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Scale difference Scion vs TC

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  • Scale difference Scion vs TC

    Hi,

    With the official Scion out, I have a question on Scale description.
    In Scion Mundane people are Scale 0 for prety much everything (not talking about Tier)
    In TC it’s Scale 1 for everything (again, ignore tier)

    I honestly prefer Scion idea that Human is 0, larger is positive, smaller is negative. And I know it’s a matter of comparison, not value, but still... it’s a bit anoying the way it is a bit different for no real reason... they could talks to the guys next room as they are using the same system...

    Just complaining...

  • #2
    I would tend to agree that a basic scale of a mechanic should not be different. Different genre's could use different levels on that scale and even for different reasons.

    Just seems odd. I a set to really enjoy the StoryPath systems, but this seems like something tied to other rules which should have been changed but made it past the point of no return.

    Best regards



    Roleplaying not Rollplaying or Ruleplaying
    Current Focus
    Storypath & Storypath to Run CoD, VtR, WtF, MtA
    Dungeons & Dragons 5th Edition

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    • #3
      There are a number of reasons why things are different between the two systems. Some of it is pre-planning for future books.


      Ian A. A. Watson
      Onyx Path Community Manager
      Trinity Continuum Content Lead

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      • #4
        Originally posted by IanWatson View Post
        There are a number of reasons why things are different between the two systems. Some of it is pre-planning for future books.
        This is just a minor cross over inconvenience, but there are a few others, mostly related to equipments, not big deal.

        I do prefere TC, not just because of the setting, but the system looks better for a general use.
        Scion is focused on the Scions, mortals are not an option on it. TC have great options for mundane characters, and it can be used for psions and talents as easy as for mundane...

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        • #5
          Not to nitpick, but mortals very much are an option for Scion. In particular, Origins is all about mortals. By contrast, Origins' TC counterpart splits its attention between mortals and Talents, with the last few chapters dedicated entirely to the latter. In terms of which gamelines caters to mortals more, I think Scion, not TC, has the edge.


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          • #6
            Originally posted by Dataweaver View Post
            Not to nitpick, but mortals very much are an option for Scion. In particular, Origins is all about mortals. By contrast, Origins' TC counterpart splits its attention between mortals and Talents, with the last few chapters dedicated entirely to the latter. In terms of which gamelines caters to mortals more, I think Scion, not TC, has the edge.
            That way to see is true, there is more page counting to describe mortals in Origin, but, as the focus on technology and general equipment, we see more about the use of a mortal in TC. Scion describe weapons, armors and all, but don’t talk about buying stuff or if a item should have more or less tags, it’s 3 and done.

            Also, the Edges give more options to work on different mortals than we have with the one calling/knack (that I am not sure is available to normal people). A knack is quite powerful, and adding to the number of skills and attributes, you get a nice amount of options, but the options are not many to differentiate two guys on same level of skill but different stiles.

            In the end, it’s all about interpretation, but the edges are just a bit more versatile...

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            • #7
              I would argue that those are less about who the games focus on, and more about the kind of character progression the default play is designed towards.

              TC has more character options, because characters generally stay what they are, and thus expand more horizontally with Edges, Skill Tricks, and super-tech as different methods to do so.

              Scion has a strong vertical growth as the default. The granular bonuses of things like Edges just aren't important when you're a band of Heroes going up against a social heavy Demigod.

              Having more character options for mortal characters isn't the same as being more mortal focused.

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              • #8
                Originally posted by Heavy Arms View Post
                I would argue that those are less about who the games focus on, and more about the kind of character progression the default play is designed towards.

                TC has more character options, because characters generally stay what they are, and thus expand more horizontally with Edges, Skill Tricks, and super-tech as different methods to do so.

                Scion has a strong vertical growth as the default. The granular bonuses of things like Edges just aren't important when you're a band of Heroes going up against a social heavy Demigod.

                Having more character options for mortal characters isn't the same as being more mortal focused.
                Hardly a RPG is focused on Mortals, there is always a little thing that make players characters above average, at least on the most famous RPGs. But, having more options for an horizontal Evolution is better to describe the differences between mortal characters, so better to play a band of characters...

                Aeon added some options for mortals too, but more about changing the basic status of the mortals. There are lots of tools, weapons and armor, you can focus the game on space exploration with no talents or psions in the ship. Most of the genetic adaptations are designed for non psions, giving more tools to face challenges.

                When we get Aberrant, the focus will be heavily on Powers, adding little to the mortals.

                Scion Hero was the last chance to get anything for mortals in Scion, but there is nothing there. Mortals are basic, that’s what We get form normality, so we need tools, tools that are not In Scion and are on TC (at least between the psions and talents)

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                • #9
                  The problem is that you're arguing playstyle preferences ("I want more granularity if I'm playing mortals") as some sort of design truth.

                  Ultimately a "mortals" focused story is facilitated by having a system that lets you run mortals are the protagonists, not one defined by how many widgets mortals can have.

                  As well, if we get into things like sci-fi genetic engineering for expanding "mortals" you're also just being biased about the genre differences between TC and Scion (and thus reasons why they're not mechanically the same). Hero completely allows for "mortals plus" Callings that would be the equivalent of heavily gene-modded "mortals." in all this. You're just, for whatever reasons, deciding that the mystic stuff like getting bit by a werewolf makes you non-mortal, while being gene-edited to be able to take on extra body mass and do greater damage with unarmed attacks doesn't.

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                  • #10
                    Originally posted by Heavy Arms View Post
                    You're just, for whatever reasons, deciding that the mystic stuff like getting bit by a werewolf makes you non-mortal, while being gene-edited to be able to take on extra body mass and do greater damage with unarmed attacks doesn't.
                    True... my fault... different themes, different setting, different play-stiles... in the end, I do prefere Sci-Fi over fantasy, and I have a mindset that says that as Sci-Fi is more “natural” or at least more “neutral” than fantasy...

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                    • #11
                      Perhaps a better way to look at it, is that sci-fi - and TC definitely goes here even if the genre doesn't have to - is a better genre for asking "what is a human?" as something to explore. This requires blurry subjective lines as things like when cybernetics, or genetic engineering, or latent superpowers, all get added in. While not the only way to accomplish this, giving humans lots of mechanical toys that might let them exceed or at least match human+ characters is one way to make the question relevant. Is a child that's capable of being the equal of a decades long practiced master of a study just a prodigy, or evidence of that child possibly not being human? Well. That's rightfully complicated.

                      Fantasy is better at looking at "what is humanity?" in comparison, because non-humans are expected as a easily defined thing in the setting. It's less about what can humans do individually, and more about how humans act vs. how explicitly non-humans act, with borderline cases only adding to the confusion. If you're trying to ask what makes mankind special/different compared to centaur-kind, it's not really going to be about the mechanical differences that represent things like centaurs being faster. It's much more about what humans (and specifically the PCs) do with their power in comparison to the world around them.

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                      • #12
                        I thought that mortals Scale 0 in Scion and Scale 1 in Trinity comes from this that Trinity is S-F - it's assumed pseudo-Mass Effect civilization, where every one has special suits, tools, weapons, etc, that makes mere mortals something greater from 'naked ape' on the start. It's just my theory.
                        Last edited by wyrdhamster; 05-12-2019, 02:33 AM.


                        My stuff for Scion 2E, CoD Contagion, Dark Eras, VtR 2E, WtF 2E, MtAw 2E, MtC 2E & BtP
                        LGBT+ through Ages
                        LGBT+ in CoD games

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                        • #13
                          Eh. TC isn’t just Æon; it’s also Aberrant, Adventure, and the modern setting from the core book (which I’ve taken to calling “Action”). And prior to Æon, there’s no “Mass Effect” style society.


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                          • #14
                            I agree with the point that TC is far more than Aeon, but I think wyrd has a point regardless as most of the TC settings have some sort of default (at least for the player characters) access to a need for using Scale 0 for "naked apes" and Scale 1 for a fully kitted out person. Adventure! might focus on Talents, but also a pulp Sci-Fi aesthetic where most of the main characters - Talents or not - are still going to have regular access to Inspired kit to operate at Scale 1 where most people around them are operating at Scale 0.

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                            • #15
                              We can’t say that a scale 1 in TC is different form a scale 0 in Scion. They are exactly the same and there are armors that give movement scale 2, so the Mass Effect tech guy is wearing an speed scale 2 armor.

                              But there is one thing they also differ, while Scion talks a lot about raising and lowering scale or one scale above, Trinity is more about Size 2, speed 3.

                              Converting from Scion to TC just need to say that the standard is 1, and from there you change the scales of the deeds. The opposite, you need to subtract 1 from everything, as they are all described by the scale.

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