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  • Scale Blog Post

    Still cracking into it, but wanted to make sure people knew it was there-

    http://theonyxpath.com/storypaths-scale/

    Edit: IMO a fair explanation of the rules, cutting away the ambiguity that lead to some of the initial confusion.

    The point that we will be seeing a lot more applications of Scale in Aberrant helped frame the relative lack of access to scale that Psions have.

    This also by association helps answer my questions about the potential for custom Skill Tricks that provide Scale on page 45, and how rare they should be. Answer- Rare.
    Last edited by MoroseMorgan; 05-23-2019, 03:15 PM.


    Raksha are my fae-vorite.

    Reincarnation of magnificentmomo.

  • #2
    Did Ian just describe how sizemorph growth is going to work? Damn, I shouldn't have read this. Now I can't wait for Aberrant.

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    • #3
      Danielle actually wrote the blog post; I just posted it, as I post nearly all our blog posts regardless of author.


      Ian A. A. Watson
      Onyx Path Community Manager

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      • #4
        Originally posted by IanWatson View Post
        Danielle actually wrote the blog post; I just posted it, as I post nearly all our blog posts regardless of author.
        Noted Still can't wait to see what are Onyx Path's special plans for it.

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        • #5
          Was the Scale the break through that Danielle had working on Trinity that resulted in the big delay to rewrite Scion mechanics for the better? I think I recall Neall saying at the time it was a mechanical change that Danielle had developed.


          Check out my expansion to the Realm of Brass and Shadow

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          • #6
            Originally posted by glamourweaver View Post
            Was the Scale the break through that Danielle had working on Trinity that resulted in the big delay to rewrite Scion mechanics for the better? I think I recall Neall saying at the time it was a mechanical change that Danielle had developed.
            No, it was a lot of things.


            Neall Raemonn Price
            Beleaguered Scion Developer

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            • #7
              Originally posted by glamourweaver View Post
              Was the Scale the break through that Danielle had working on Trinity that resulted in the big delay to rewrite Scion mechanics for the better? I think I recall Neall saying at the time it was a mechanical change that Danielle had developed.

              At the time that Trinity's rule set was being written, Scion's had been through several iterations and play tests. I took the best information from those things and adapted them as best I could to Trinity, mostly by asking an awesome author to interpret a bunch of basically hand-written notes. The result was a cleaner version of Storypath's core system, which Neall then took to clean up Scion's system. All aspects of the system, such as Scale, Tier, Enhancement, Momentum, etc. were already there from Neall's initial creation of the Storypath System.


              Danielle Lauzon, Requiem Developer, Storypath Guru, freelance writer

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              • #8
                I was under the impression that, in combat, the higher tier character can apply his automatic bonuses towards combat roles. So, for example, a Tier 2 character fights a Tier 3 monstrosity, the monstrosity will be able to get a 2 success bonus to combat roles. They used an example in the main book where someone tries to fight an Aberrant with super powers.

                This makes sense since many enemies in Trinity are super powered Aberrants. would they not be able to add bonus successes to their roles for a different Tier? I thought that was one of the points of their godlike powers.

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                • #9
                  Originally posted by maryshelly View Post
                  I was under the impression that, in combat, the higher tier character can apply his automatic bonuses towards combat roles. So, for example, a Tier 2 character fights a Tier 3 monstrosity, the monstrosity will be able to get a 2 success bonus to combat roles. They used an example in the main book where someone tries to fight an Aberrant with super powers.

                  This makes sense since many enemies in Trinity are super powered Aberrants. would they not be able to add bonus successes to their roles for a different Tier? I thought that was one of the points of their godlike powers.
                  Well I think that's the point, the chart is misleading and tier should not be *inherently* conferring scale. So an Aeon Psion has an assumed scale of 1 (unless a Psi Power/gear/etc. says otherwise), and the simplified NPC Aberrant foes should have the generic scale interpreted as coming from their enhanced physiques and powers (Mega Attributes, etc.) rather than their tier.

                  The area where I really want some explicit clarification is if Speed Scale is intended/able/assumed to apply to combat defense via dodging in general purpose scenarios (i.e. things like the Swift Edge wouldn't apply since the scope of the speed scale is pre-defined) where whoever possess it has room to maneuver. This is something that is extremely likely to come up in many games, I've seen contradictory interpretations, am in two minds about it myself, and it makes a huge, huge difference in evaluating how good different options are/how combat functions/etc. As an example, Kinetic Enhancement either does nothing defensively or offers an incredible advantage against most foes. It does make a ton of sense that it would be a lot harder to land a hit on someone who is able to move in arbitrary directions in 3-dimensions at hypersonic speed. It also seems like it's significantly easier (for Psions at least) to access Speed Scale relative to other scales, the game doesn't really point out the abilities that grant it as being great defensive options, etc., and this might not be how the game is intended to function.

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                  • #10
                    Speed is basically just to move. It apply enhancements when the characters are racing (or chasing)against each other, even when it’s on tight or crowded places. The point of speed is bare speed not reaction time or reflexes. But... there is always a but... you could add scale enhancements on the Defense when trying to timing a a blow on a passing by runner, or shooting a fast target, as they are just going too fast to point and shoot or to just punch their faces.

                    What bothers me is Space Speed, a space fighter is not the fastest long distance flyer, but it can move in circles around big freighters, but both have the same space speed. I think the size would difficult the manoeuvres or the acceleration, otherwise you won’t have the faster fighters zooming around the sluggish big ships while they have a hard time shooting them with their small weapons and targeting the other capital ships across the field with their big guns.

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                    • #11
                      It doesn't need to imply superhuman reaction times that allows you to literally dodge bullets like Neo though, that's not what 'dodging' attacks represents in the game (usually), and just bare movement speed demonstrably makes it significantly harder to hit a moving target in real life, all the more so when that speed is being actively used to evade. I generally really hate 'but that's how it really works!' arguments when it comes to RPG rules, but in this case the person running the game is explicitly asked to constantly make judgments about when/how Scale applies based on precisely those criteria.

                      When you say it might be hard to 'shoot a fast target' that's exactly what I'm talking about - if I'm shooting at character A who moves at normal human speed and he can use his defensive roll to avoid my gunshots by moving evasively (dodging) or to move behind cover or to move out of range, does it not make sense that a hypothetical character B who is otherwise equivalent but can move as fast as a sports car would be significantly better at all of these things than character A? And a similar character C who can do it at several thousand miles per hour would be even better at it than character B? I'm seeing very few circumstances when someone wouldn't be able to make an extremely reasonable argument that they should be able to apply speed scale to their defense tests.

                      I think it can be fine if there is some fuzziness about potential offsetting factors (i.e. maybe you can't properly leverage your full speed in an enclosed environment) and obviously different Storyguides will apply scale somewhat differently anyway, but this is a circumstance that has a very high likelihood of happening in play (since player characters can explicitly use their abilities to access very high Speed scales), once it does happen it will come up in almost every subsequent combat encounter, and reasonable differences in interpretation have a massive impact on how combat plays out. So this at least seems like an area where the game could benefit from explicit guidance via a FAQ or something.

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                      • #12
                        Originally posted by greendevilman View Post
                        if I'm shooting at character A who moves at normal human speed and he can use his defensive roll to avoid my gunshots by moving evasively (dodging) or to move behind cover or to move out of range, does it not make sense that a hypothetical character B who is otherwise equivalent but can move as fast as a sports car would be significantly better at all of these things than character A? And a similar character C who can do it at several thousand miles per hour would be even better at it than character B? I'm seeing very few circumstances when someone wouldn't be able to make an extremely reasonable argument that they should be able to apply speed scale to their defense tests.
                        There is a significant difference between speed and reaction time. Yes, it would be hard to punch someone running by you at mach 1, but just because I can run mach 1 doesn't mean I'm going to be better at making split-second defensive decisions in a stressful combat situation.

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                        • #13
                          Originally posted by Florin View Post

                          There is a significant difference between speed and reaction time. Yes, it would be hard to punch someone running by you at mach 1, but just because I can run mach 1 doesn't mean I'm going to be better at making split-second defensive decisions in a stressful combat situation.
                          Exactly my point. A car at 160km/h (100mph) took some time to reach that speed and have low control of the position require to effectively avoid being hit. It’s more about the difficulty of the attacker to point the gun than the ability of the driver to dodge effectively.

                          As greendevilman said, it’s up to the one running the game what kind of condition apply. In Storypath it’s like this for absolutely everything, it’s a narrative focused game, not much a rules focused, for example an injury can cause a -2 complication on the attack but not on an athletic fit because you hit your hand and not your arm.

                          Even the rules for psionic powers are a bit up to the SG, like, does the shield protect against acid dripping on the character? It melt stuff so it’s not a physical, but a chemical damage, but yet, a shield blocks physical body to cross it. Does acid corrodes force fields? If you stick a red hot Iron bar thru a energy force field dos it get cold as it blocks the energy passage?

                          It’s not a matter of rules, but situations.

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                          • #14
                            Originally posted by Florin View Post

                            There is a significant difference between speed and reaction time. Yes, it would be hard to punch someone running by you at mach 1, but just because I can run mach 1 doesn't mean I'm going to be better at making split-second defensive decisions in a stressful combat situation.
                            Sure, but you're also not going to be any worse and it's extremely reasonable to expect that speed to be an asset to any correct decisions you do make (and even some incorrect ones), for very obvious "it's a hell of a lot harder to hit an equivalently sized target moving several hundred miles an hour vs. one moving at a walking pace" reasons. When it comes to scale I'm ok with a fair bit of it necessarily being a judgement call, but there are specific, long-lasting and easily repeatable ways to explicitly access high speed scales, and it makes it very hard to talk about the game if entirely reasonable differences in interpretation between tables are potentially resulting in wildly disparate levels of combat prowess.

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                            • #15
                              I can agree that being fast should confer some bonus to Defense, but I'd like to work through if Scale is the right answer for that, and also if that was intended effect and costed appropriately, for the personal Scale with Psi powers, and then what that would mean for the vehicle combat.

                              First thing that jumps out at me is that the 2 dot Psychomorph power would become the best defense in the game since you'd get +2 Scale on defense for 2 Successes, but obviously the way it is worded to stack with Swift, which is specifically worded to only count for actual races and chases, I don't think the intent was for this to be a direct effect.


                              Raksha are my fae-vorite.

                              Reincarnation of magnificentmomo.

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