Announcement

Collapse
No announcement yet.

Null Manifesto Revisions

Collapse
X
  • Filter
  • Time
  • Show
Clear All
new posts

  • #16
    Indeed, I agree with you. His insanity is a Megalomania, he do believe in all he said and more.

    He is not an Antagonist by himself, Taragem is not the bad guys, there is a lot of bad propaganda to make the population believe they are, and a few times their actions are really bad, but most of time they are on a self defence situation.

    Even the fight against Pax, Divis is the victim, he is attacked first and the way he show it by defeating him easily and non lethal is the best prove. He does not say Kill baselines, he just say that novas are leaving most of their capacity behind by respecting their role as humans, what they are not anymore.

    But he is insane... he believe he is a god all might and unreachable, while he still have a human psichology, and capacity of of errors related mostly to his sentiments and world view.

    Comment


    • #17
      Originally posted by Possessed View Post
      Am I really the only one who doesn’t see Divis Mal as antagonist nor particularly insane, after all he is correct in most things concerning Novas. He developed a way to handle Taint and even turn it into more personal growth and he is correct in that following human laws and restrictions will limit the potential Novas can reach. In addition to this he is not the one who threathened to destroy the world, that was humans, but was willing to leave it behind to save it.
      He's not really an antagonist, or really crazy, but he is written as kind of a hypocrite. The Night of Long Knives isn't really consistent with how he's written elsewhere.

      Originally posted by Mateus Luz View Post
      Indeed, I agree with you. His insanity is a Megalomania, he do believe in all he said and more.

      He is not an Antagonist by himself, Taragem is not the bad guys, there is a lot of bad propaganda to make the population believe they are, and a few times their actions are really bad, but most of time they are on a self defence situation.

      Even the fight against Pax, Divis is the victim, he is attacked first and the way he show it by defeating him easily and non lethal is the best prove. He does not say Kill baselines, he just say that novas are leaving most of their capacity behind by respecting their role as humans, what they are not anymore.

      But he is insane... he believe he is a god all might and unreachable, while he still have a human psichology, and capacity of of errors related mostly to his sentiments and world view.
      The Teragen as the whole aren't bad guys, but parts of them are. Especially the Primacy, they're just flat terrorists.

      Comment


      • #18
        Originally posted by Possessed View Post
        Am I really the only one who doesn’t see Divis Mal as antagonist nor particularly insane, after all he is correct in most things concerning Novas. He developed a way to handle Taint and even turn it into more personal growth and he is correct in that following human laws and restrictions will limit the potential Novas can reach. In addition to this he is not the one who threathened to destroy the world, that was humans, but was willing to leave it behind to save it.
        A person can have valid points and worthy achievements and still be a monster. Take someone probably admired by most of the people who post to these boards, Noam Chomsky. Many of the man's essays on the Vietnam war, rationally edited for length( he had to prove his points redundantly because of the politics of the day and the man is prolix) should be required reading in all American high schools and colleges. Still, he is and was a monster of vanity, an attention whore, and has lately degenerated in to a mere conspiracy theorist. Yes, much the man has written is gloriously worthwhile, but Noam is a bully and a lout. If we look at Nietzsche, we see a great writer with profound insights who was also an infantile brat grown tall a class bigot and a sneering idiot about government and society. Divis has much to offer. The man is still a bigoted fool.

        Like the Technocracy, White Wolf's other truely great villain, Divis is heroic, but he is still dangerously wrong and must be stopped.
        Last edited by Astromancer; 06-26-2019, 11:40 AM.

        Comment


        • #19
          Originally posted by Possessed View Post
          Am I really the only one who doesn’t see Divis Mal as antagonist nor particularly insane, after all he is correct in most things concerning Novas. He developed a way to handle Taint and even turn it into more personal growth and he is correct in that following human laws and restrictions will limit the potential Novas can reach. In addition to this he is not the one who threathened to destroy the world, that was humans, but was willing to leave it behind to save it.
          No. You are not alone. I love the guy and his character and think he is one of the great White Wolf characters.

          I also find his idea that novas should not be behilden to human laws as quite logical considering who they are and what they can do.

          Comment


          • #20
            Possessed; I don't strictly classify him as an antagonist as I also agree with the core ideals he's trying to put forth, especially when the 1e lore pretty much certifies his viewpoint in the reactions of baseline humanity (though that is mainly just a push toward the Trinity outcome). His warping of his own consciousness through multiple chrysalis applications took a simple concept and made it into a grandiose manifesto which only served to polarize novakind and demonize him in the eyes of baselines. Literally anyone who ever quoted the Null manifesto only ever seemed to be focusing on one line or another (which is where that inane human/ape comparison comes from), they were incapable of looking at it as a whole and never seemed to see the underlying point. The

            Teragen suffered because it attracted those who used one line or another as justification for whatever antisocial or exploitative agenda they were already on about. The Primacy and Nova Vigilance were made up up former elites, novas who couldn't see anything other than battle lines and conflict by their very nature and who needed a war to fight. The Harvesters under Leviathan were all twisted mutants just acting out because they weren't human-passing in the slightest the same way the nosferatu did back in Vampire. Tarik was just a power-mongering leech trying to rule the middle-east. Narcosis was an attention-thirsty child who needed validation though she had nothing of substance to offer. Apostle was a pathological sycophant whose idiocy ruined what might have merely been a contemplative monastic sect of novas under Scripture. The rest of the terats were either keeping to themselves, trying to stockpile resources for defending from any possible reprisals from humans, or trying (and failing) to think up a viable future for novakind.

            Divis Mal might have had more success had he phrased his point another way, comparing humans and novas to neighbors instead of different animal species. Neighbors can live in harmony when they are across the street from each other, or a door down or so because they have their own spaces. If neighbors are forced to be roommates in the same house it generates conflict.

            Comment


            • #21
              But the fact he treat baselines as “inferior creatures” is the point. The entire manifesto runs around the fact that he think he is a god, and all other novas are gods too, the other novas in Teragen do what they do because Mal told them they are free to do whatever they want to achieve their full capacity. You can’t be the best scientist if you don’t do science, same for all the quantum powered killing machines that fallowed him.

              Mal is crazy tho think that people, Nova or Baseline, will behave and respect the next if they don’t need to. He can do it, but the tainted guys don’t. He may be a merciful god (in 2008-15) but when he burn the UN building he is not merciful anymore, not even him bahave by the end of Aberrant Wars.

              Comment


              • #22
                Originally posted by Darksol-aeternium View Post
                Divis Mal might have had more success had he phrased his point another way, comparing humans and novas to neighbors instead of different animal species. Neighbors can live in harmony when they are across the street from each other, or a door down or so because they have their own spaces. If neighbors are forced to be roommates in the same house it generates conflict.
                Ooh. I like this. What a brilliant way to describe it.

                Honestly in some ways seperate but equal works when it comes to novas and baselines.

                Comment


                • #23
                  Mateus Luz; The line in the original draft Null Manifesto that literally everyone in the setting misinterpreted contains it’s own solution which they all overlooked or ignored, namely this one;

                  Until a common governing body, composed entirely of novas qualified to hold authority, is recognized by the majority of the nova population, then it is the duty of every Homo Sapiens Novus to govern himself or herself as he or she sees fit.

                  This line presents the solution that could have been exploited at any time during the nova golden age which might have prevented the aberrant war altogether while at the same time reining in the malignant trouble-making novas. Never once did anyone think to actually sit down somewhere, with prominent novas of ALL stripes not just Terats, and try to actually create such a judicial body. With the population of novas in the golden age being between 7000 to 9000ish it wouldn’t be as impossible as you might think to get a general consensus of around 80% of them. And while baseline governments might balk at the idea of a nova-only tribunal for dealing with their behavior, you can’t deny that such a body creates a sense of accountability among the very people they were all trying to control anyway (whether they admit it or not), hence solving the lion’s share of the problem.
                  Sure you’ll still have the crazies and taint-maddened who’ll always buck the system, but it may salve the general nova population to know that they have a set of laws made by and for them, as well as a jury of actual peers, as opposed to baselines who range from bigoted paranoiacs to patronizing overseers comfortable in their positions of power.

                  That Directive nova Agent Harris observed in their trainee’s manual that the Terats basic rights for novakind are near-identical to those of the Directive mandate for baselines, so a common ground could have been found among the two legal systems had anyone bothered to try.

                  Comment


                  • #24
                    That’s exactly the phrase that I am talking about when I said they would behave properly.

                    I am quite sure more than one group tried to create this compendium of Nova laws, but both countries and a good part of the Nova community would not accept to differentiate laws for novas and baselines. The Terat rights are related to Nova-Nova interaction, they don’t care to place baselines as anything other than protégées from novas, so I guess nobody but the novas would accept.

                    It actually makes no sense from any way I try to see. Mal want a set of laws that allow the novas to achieve full power, but after Q6, you are dealing with citywide effects, any restriction to it would make them restricted, but at same time putting in risk millions of lives. It’s like a law that allow regular people to have tanks, buy munition and Fire whenever they want, otherwise you are limiting the use of the owner propriety (in a citywide scale of course).

                    Imagine the international laws about the amount of radioactive products the countries can have, the number of nukes they can have, and things like this. Who created the laws? Who force the laws over the other countries? Who don’t care to follow the rules? It’s all basically the same country if you don’t know... Who would force the law in Pax or Antaeus? Mal... but who would do the same to Mal? No even all the other combined would...

                    We are back to the same situation, the low powered novas do their jobs and follow the rules, while the powerful ones (that are the real problem) act as they want because nobody would be capable of reprehend them.

                    Comment


                    • #25
                      Darksol-aeternium, I tried to post before but the forums tossed me out. I'll try to answer you fairly.

                      First, any actually functioning council would be opposed by many people who'd lose power. People like Geryon, Shrapnel, Clarion, and other Terats who prefer chaos or seek power for themselves. Remember both the Spanish nobleman, whose name eludes me, and his Arab allies see the Terats as stepping stones to power for themselves. Also groups like De Vries, the Directive, Proteus, and Utopia, see Novas as resources and property not free individuals. Just as the slave owners of the old South rejected political rights for both slaves and free Blacks, so these groups need to prevent Novas from having full human rights in order to maintain power.

                      Secondly, national governments rarely choose to give up control of power and resources. Novas are seen as both. Further, non-democratic governments have no reason to promote a supranational democratic institution and remind their citizens of rights they lack.

                      Third, and more literary. White Wolf and others that write for the WoD and the Trinityverse don't seem to think viable democracies belong in their stories.

                      So, yes, a democratic council is the way to responsibility, but not power.

                      Comment


                      • #26
                        I would love for there to be either an alternate or a potential in which that sort of governing structure happens. Imagine a setting where the player novas are the ones to build said group. At first they start as the agents of some greater official or organization but as things develop, and they grow in power and influence, they soon become the focus, the lead, in said operation. To me that would be such an awesome campaign idea.

                        Much better than the 'automatic' everything is going to hell, novas will go insane, the world will die in fire that seemed to be the automatic vision of the canon age. (Thankfully in this version of the game line the whole many worlds idea works, so there is no automatic guaranteed future that makes Aberrant turn into Trinity.)

                        Comment


                        • #27
                          >Mateus Luz; You do have a point about the actual enforcement of any set of nova-specific laws, though any reference to human institutions or governing bodies would be irrelevant in this case. The entire purpose of such a set of laws would be to remove the need for baseline interference in the determinism of novakind. Mal throughout the text has been notoriously hands-off for most of the line, only actually acting during the Bahrain rescue of Fong, and the Ultimatum, so based on that he'd stay just as hands off after a tribunal formed. Furthermore, since it's literally HIS idea written into his manifesto, I can't see him ever being opposed to such a group and that's assuming that he doesn't opt to become the enforcer of whatever laws novas write for themselves (he WAS willing to let the entire Teragen run amok and do whatever they wanted after all), he's egocentric enough to take on that "responsibility".

                          >Astromancer; I'll give you that some of the factions within the Teragen would be opposed to anything that causes a perceived loss of power, but your characterization of Orzaiz (only Spanish noble I can think of) seems to be off. While acquiring influence and resources IS one of his goals, it was laid out in the terat handbook what he plans to do with it. I think you may be conflating him with Tarik since you mentioned arab allies, and Tarik absolutely IS a power-mongering leech.

                          The problem with your first two points is that all are centered around the idea of baseline humans retaining their presumed power structure and imagined 'rights' to novas as property/commodities. Baselines should not even be part of the equation in the case of a nova-specific governing body. Literally every decision or idea that will come out of a basic human will be grounded in their backward, tribalistic instinct to suppress or eliminate the "other" and tempered only with their entitled and opportunistic urge to exploit or dominate the "other" whenever it's profitable. It's the same silly pageant that plays out throughout all human history, and apparently carries into the trinity timeline if the text of the Player's Guide is to be believed (check out pgs.83-92 for a carbon-copy of nova-era bigotry now Ph-balanced for psions).

                          It’s tempting to assume that a governing body of novas would dismiss the human population as fodder, but that mindset is actually in the minority at first. It’s only with repeated and prolonged abuses from baselines that more novas start to think “to hell with humans”. Most of the Teragen couldn’t give a damn about humans one way or the other, it’s literally only 2/3 of the Primacy, ½ the Harvesters, Tarik’s Companions, and Nova Vigilance that actually bother with them directly. And with only around 50-60 terats in total (per Narcosis in the Terat book) that’s not a whole lot of novas compared to the 7-9k of the time period. Given an even distribution of novas including various mindsets apart from the Teragen, I’d think any overarching laws created would severely discourage if not outlaw wanton slaughter of baselines “for the funzies”, for the simple fact that any baseline could potentially give rise to more novas if nothing else.

                          And yes, of course the WW writers of the time wouldn’t want anything like a sane, functioning democratic council to happen since it goes fully against their usual grim-derp assumption in any scenario wherein all things eventually break down into chaos, infighting, angst, and doom.

                          >Lord Heru; Yes, exactly. And honestly the shaky reasoning Utopia hinges its entire existence upon actually plays into such an idea. AEON and Utopia keep trying to play up the idea that Nova = Superhero in the baseline mind both to ease the public’s fears of the other and to further their exploitative agenda by creating the assumption of obligation. The concept of a “superhuman council” is part of the same set of tropes they’re trying to push, and would be accepted by the common man for the same reasons. While it may not synch up perfectly with human laws, the idea that a wild nova could be held accountable by not only whatever local law enforcement, but also by a tribunal of other novas, could be a comfort to baselines in the nova era.

                          Comment

                          Working...
                          X