Announcement

Collapse
No announcement yet.

Lex Luthor was right (or was it?)

Collapse
X
  • Filter
  • Time
  • Show
Clear All
new posts

  • Firanai
    started a topic Lex Luthor was right (or was it?)

    Lex Luthor was right (or was it?)

    There's an argument that Lex Luthor uses about the damage superman does to society that I believe it's worth discussing (Yeah, I know that Luthor is a megalomaniac, but I don't want to discuss the reasons why he uses it, just the merits of the argument itself) because I think he has a point.

    Superman is stunting human development, regardless of his good intentions. When you have an all-powerful god saving humanity from itself, then how can they learn from their mistakes? When you have an all-powerful god doing things that humans will never be able to accomplish, then what's the point of even trying to improve? When you have an all-powerful god being the paragon of virtue, how we can even measure ups to him with all our flaws? When you have an all-powerful god being the perfect hero then...well, what's the point of even trying to be a hero?

    If we transfer this argument to the world of aberrant then these questions must be asked: What place is left for humanity in a world of gods? Should humanity try to charter it's own path or follow the novas unquestionably? Should humanity just pull all their resources in becoming gods themselves or maybe there's something worth keeping in baselines humans?

    But here are the most important questions of them all: Can novas prove Luthor wrong and be a force of inspiration instead of apathy? Can they convince people to try and be the best version of themselves whatever form that version takes? Can humanity and Novas share a future without Nova's overwhelming humanity?

    I'm curious about what do you think about this topic. Thank you for your answers.

  • muon
    replied
    Originally posted by FallenEco View Post

    Not entirely disagreeing, but nova-tech is used in the manuscript as a term separate to Q-tech, the divide between the two primarily being 'Inspired' tech vs Powered Tech, but it does mention that nova-tech can be reverse engineered, unlike Q-tech.

    Just pointing out that terminology here can get really fincky.
    I know about the differences between Q-tech and nova-tech. Both can be reverse engineered. The process is describe in Shifting the Paradigm. The nova creates a Q-tech flying suit, then reverse engineers it and creates a nova-tech version that can be used by non-novas. This requires three different extended rolls with Milestones, each of which can only be done by Novas. To create a mass produced version capable of being made by non-novas, it has to be reverse engineered from the nova-tech version and a core-tech one created, two more extended rolls. It's not very clear on whether non-novas can reverse engineer nova-tech, but it's resistant to it and would have a minimum of +5 Difficulty for a baseline, +3 for a Tier 2 character. "Novas do more than just change expectations of what’s possible. Over time, over iterations of inventions that constantly push the boundaries of science and reason, novas change what is possible."

    Leave a comment:


  • FallenEco
    replied
    Originally posted by muon View Post

    Non-Novas can't reverse-engineer nova-tech either. So we have Novas creating Q-tech that doesn't conform to scientific principles, then altering those principles so they can be produced by non-novas.
    Not entirely disagreeing, but nova-tech is used in the manuscript as a term separate to Q-tech, the divide between the two primarily being 'Inspired' tech vs Powered Tech, but it does mention that nova-tech can be reverse engineered, unlike Q-tech.

    Just pointing out that terminology here can get really fincky.

    Leave a comment:


  • muon
    replied
    Originally posted by FallenEco View Post
    Actually @Lian about an hour after I posted that I remembered that 'true' baselines are limited to the Advanced Science category of Super Science in Trinity. While this doesn't stop advancement from occurring, it does limit both the scope and the impact of baseline science. Reverse engineering hyperfusion novatech is definitely important and will matter but you won't really get the credit.
    Non-Novas can't reverse-engineer nova-tech either. So we have Novas creating Q-tech that doesn't conform to scientific principles, then altering those principles so they can be produced by non-novas.

    Leave a comment:


  • Dataweaver
    replied
    Originally posted by Lian View Post
    IF your definition of Human is "Baseline only"
    It isn't, so the rest is moot.

    Leave a comment:


  • Lian
    replied
    Originally posted by Dataweaver View Post

    So with that ambiguity in mind, I think that a lot of baselines are likely to point to Talents as evidence that baselines aren't completely outmatched by empowered humans. This leads to a mixed response among baselines, with one camp that looks at Novas and says that humanity's time has passed, and another camp that looks at Talents and says that the human spirit can triumph over even the seemingly overwhelming advantage that Novas enjoy.
    IF your definition of Human is "Baseline only" then do Cyborgs count? What about Biomods? I Feel like claiming that is like Diabetees 1 people screaming "YOU CAN NATURALLY PRODUCE INSULIN YOU AREN"T HUMAN!" My humanity would include Ai probes sent to the farthest corners of space because they are born of us. That Novas can do things that other people can't is no different than that Tesla existed.

    Leave a comment:


  • Lian
    replied
    Originally posted by Firanai View Post


    My question is then, how would you handle this? If you were a Nova, especially a super genius, how would you balance helping humanity while at the same time giving them space to learn on their own?


    Universal uplifting. The idea that Baseline vs Inspired is a thing and should be a thing is a mistake. Inspired are better adapted for the universe. Everything else is just coddling them. Deciding randomly what "Gifts of your Genius to give" is just as much a denial of human growth as offering them. So make everyone Inspired.

    Anything like "protect them from secret" or "only hand out technology when they are ready" is just another form of coddling, its like letting a fish grow in a fish tank. Yeah it thinks its safe, it thinks its bad ass. Its not.

    Also there's the fact that science is infinite and Novas are not.

    Leave a comment:


  • Dataweaver
    replied
    Frankly, FallenEco 's point about how there's at least the perception that the existence of empowered humans harms baselines by pushing the notion that you need powers to matter? That's why I preferred Adventure!'s notion that Daredevils aren't empowered, and that Dramatic Editing and Heroic Knacks are meta-gaming mechanics to forward genre conventions.

    Even in 2e, I prefer the notion that there isn't a sharp line between extraordinary baselines and Talents, to the point where I have a house rule that allows anyone to use Dramatic Editing by spending Momentum on it. But setting aside house rules, recall that outside of Project Tantalus (?) very few people are even aware that Talents exist; nearly everyone thinks that Talents are baselines. And even Project Tantalus isn't able to produce clear and unambiguous proof that Talents are something distinct from baselines; at best, they've been able to provide circumstantial evidence.

    So with that ambiguity in mind, I think that a lot of baselines are likely to point to Talents as evidence that baselines aren't completely outmatched by empowered humans. This leads to a mixed response among baselines, with one camp that looks at Novas and says that humanity's time has passed, and another camp that looks at Talents and says that the human spirit can triumph over even the seemingly overwhelming advantage that Novas enjoy.

    Leave a comment:


  • Firanai
    replied
    Originally posted by FallenEco View Post

    The point I was trying to make is the illusion that Lex has a point is stronger in Trinity than in DC. Especially as people like to have quick and simple answers rather than suffer through 'wasted' time. The fact is, his argument, while false and logically inconsistent can resonate in-universe because it can feel like only the Inspired can make lasting changes in a reasonable amount of time, because you can see it. Researchers can get discouraged from the work due to little progress made now, how much worse would it be when you can see someone just crank out a solution to the problem you were trying to analyse within two months? Never mind that the havoc that play on funding. All dispite the fact that it is known that science is built on previous, often incredmental research for most of human history.
    Resentment under those conditions is easy, especially with the celebrity culture surrounding Novas in the Aberrant era.
    I created my version of the trascendence alliance for the nova era based on this premise. You can read all about it in this same forum.

    Also, I wanted to thank you all for your answers. They have given me a lot to think about.

    However, it was never my intention to make Luthor such an integral part of the argument. He's villain trying to hide the real reason he does things: a wounded ego. Let's not give him more time and let me get straight to the question I really wanted to ask.

    Where do you put the limit with how much you help? Should there be a limit? What's the best course of action for humanity as a whole?

    Those are questions that novas have to ask. Not helping is not realistic, the majority of people want to leave their mark in the world. That said, if you help too much you run the risk of making humanity too dependent on Novas. This COULD lead to a situation of stagnation in which curiosity, risk taking, and development slow down or even stop as humanity simply stops trying.

    Now, as some of you have pointed out this situation is VERY unlikely and I agree, it's an unrealistic scenario only plausible if you take it to the extreme. However, a certain level of stagnation could settle in humanity and that could have severe long-term consequences.

    My question is then, how would you handle this? If you were a Nova, especially a super genius, how would you balance helping humanity while at the same time giving them space to learn on their own?

    Leave a comment:


  • Lian
    replied
    Originally posted by FallenEco View Post

    You understand that I am agreeing with you, right? Lex is wrong, objectively and humanity as whole is meant to raise above that in Trinity 2e.
    I think we have a completely different take on what Lex Luthor's argument is. I don't agree that what he broadly seems to say in DC matches what you are saying at all about the Trinity Continuum. That the people who are making the argument that you think your points are supporting.. are x-men villains.

    Could there be an argument that baseline humanity is made obsolete by the Inspired? Absolutely. IS that anything close to something Lex has ever said? Not really. I mean there's a reason right now he's running around as ApexLex.

    The people screaming about going the way of the Neanderthal.. are X-men villains

    Leave a comment:


  • Mateus Luz
    replied
    Technically Superiors were invented by a Nova (Nakamura was a Nova, Aeon page 367, in the Testing and Enhancing Humans side box), but your point is valid.

    Leave a comment:


  • FallenEco
    replied
    Originally posted by Lian View Post

    Except THIS IS TRUE NOW. You don't need Novas or Psions or Talents in the Real world to have people work hard and.. not get anything. Most people in science aren't going to solve the Energy Crisis.. they will maybe discover one little thing, that builds on one little thing. That builds on one little thing. That is how science works its not about one person who's a mega inventor getting credit. That's just the raw arrogance of Lex Luthor.

    Now there might be an argument for "lets go all in on transhumanism" trying to properly become a completely inspired species but. That's not Lex Luthor's argument. His poorly concieved argument has to do with xenophobia and his own ego. For inspired to apply at all they would have to... not come from human stock. His argument is that an alien being watching over us makes us complacent. OR was before he became Apex Lex and is... much more arguing humans should be unbound and free with their innate birth right of super powers stolen from them by lesser beings forcing them down to "their level" which... also isn't what you are arguing for and infact closer to what Teragen pushes.

    Now the Baselines should hate and Fear the Inspired is... probably better covered by Countless X-men Villains. If you want to go "WIlliam STriker was right" well.. the Nova age definately makes a solid argument for needing Giant purple robots...
    You understand that I am agreeing with you, right? Lex is wrong, objectively and humanity as whole is meant to raise above that in Trinity 2e.

    The point I was trying to make is the illusion that Lex has a point is stronger in Trinity than in DC. Especially as people like to have quick and simple answers rather than suffer through 'wasted' time. The fact is, his argument, while false and logically inconsistent can resonate in-universe because it can feel like only the Inspired can make lasting changes in a reasonable amount of time, because you can see it. Researchers can get discouraged from the work due to little progress made now, how much worse would it be when you can see someone just crank out a solution to the problem you were trying to analyse within two months? Never mind that the havoc that play on funding. All dispite the fact that it is known that science is built on previous, often incredmental research for most of human history.
    Resentment under those conditions is easy, especially with the celebrity culture surrounding Novas in the Aberrant era.
    But that doesn't mean Lex is right.
    We already have issues with 'pop science'; studies that haven't been verified going to general public news distributors who simplify the findings, presenting the false equivalence between fringe theories and the consensus, 'publish or perish' reducing the desire to replicate while putting pressure on releasing sensationalised reports ASAP...Throw in that Q-Tech can not be reverse engineered by baselines and can't even be tested without a reality warping Nova present, that it takes until it has been reduced to novatech before independent replication can even be attempted, it is not hard to see the 'pop science' issues get even worse
    As I said, it isn't hard to see that the ILLUSION of his argument appear to be more solid.

    The alien argument is trickier, as most Inspired come entirely from humanity. But my understanding is the Doyen are EXACTLY the kind of thing Lex CLAIMS to have worried. An alien race altering (and limiting) human development to their own ends and our detriment. And that is almost certainly going to backfire at some point in universe. At the very least Japan is going to say "I told you so, psions are bad" when that comes out.

    Lex Luthor is wrong in the Aberrant Era and the intended way the Aeon Era is meant to play out proves him wrong again. It only ever seems like he is right because people are emotional invested and Lex takes advantage of that. Honestly, Lex could easily be a facist dictator with how he twists naratives. The fact that we are even discussing this is indicative of how easy it is for that kind of rhetoric to influence people.
    In almost every post I have made in this thread, I have stated Lex is wrong. In some I try to provide reasoning, albeit without much in the way of supporting facts though I'm trying, for why it might APPEAR that he is right. This is jot because he is right, but because I can certainly see a vocal minority arguing that he is right in universe. Unlike the npc pundits player characters may watch on the evening news (before throwing something at the TV in rage), I'm trying to argue in good faith. I'm also trying to keep my arguement limited to fictional media as much as possible.

    And I am not only aware that the current 'Doom/Apex' Lex is a prime candidate for Teragen along with the canonical Magneto expy. I find it amusing.

    Finally, as far as X-Men villains making a better foil...i believe that was by design? At least for the Aberrant Era. Divinis Mal/Dr Polaris and Max Mercer are former friends who had a falling out, Aeon preaches coexistance and cooperation while Terragen argues for mutan-(ahem) nova supremacy, etc. It is NOT subtle. Lex Luthor was chosen by the original poster for this discussion in order to see how much of his bullsh*t works in Trinity. The answer is that it is false in Aberrant and Aeon, but I'd argue that it would find supports/mouth pieces just the same.

    Honestly, Superiors basically are proof he is wrong anyway. "We" invented a whole new type of...eximorph(?), in order overcome the interventionist interference of aliens. It is like if Lex invented a ton of new technologies to take down Superman...

    Leave a comment:


  • Lian
    replied
    Originally posted by FallenEco View Post
    Actually @Lian about an hour after I posted that I remembered that 'true' baselines are limited to the Advanced Science category of Super Science in Trinity. While this doesn't stop advancement from occurring, it does limit both the scope and the impact of baseline science. Reverse engineering hyperfusion novatech is definitely important and will matter but you won't really get the credit. Plus what original research will top the end of the energy crisis? And can you do it before a Mega-inventor does?
    It sounds like a lot of pressure to me. Combined with the fear of aberrants when we get to Aeon period (which is a major factor for the distrust of hard-tech which can be subverted with quantum powers), the large scale adoption of noetic tech makes Lex's argument appear more reasonable. (It still most certainly is NOT.)
    Except THIS IS TRUE NOW. You don't need Novas or Psions or Talents in the Real world to have people work hard and.. not get anything. Most people in science aren't going to solve the Energy Crisis.. they will maybe discover one little thing, that builds on one little thing. That builds on one little thing. That is how science works its not about one person who's a mega inventor getting credit. That's just the raw arrogance of Lex Luthor.

    Now there might be an argument for "lets go all in on transhumanism" trying to properly become a completely inspired species but. That's not Lex Luthor's argument. His poorly concieved argument has to do with xenophobia and his own ego. For inspired to apply at all they would have to... not come from human stock. His argument is that an alien being watching over us makes us complacent. OR was before he became Apex Lex and is... much more arguing humans should be unbound and free with their innate birth right of super powers stolen from them by lesser beings forcing them down to "their level" which... also isn't what you are arguing for and infact closer to what Teragen pushes.

    Now the Baselines should hate and Fear the Inspired is... probably better covered by Countless X-men Villains. If you want to go "WIlliam STriker was right" well.. the Nova age definately makes a solid argument for needing Giant purple robots...

    Leave a comment:


  • FallenEco
    replied
    Actually @Lian about an hour after I posted that I remembered that 'true' baselines are limited to the Advanced Science category of Super Science in Trinity. While this doesn't stop advancement from occurring, it does limit both the scope and the impact of baseline science. Reverse engineering hyperfusion novatech is definitely important and will matter but you won't really get the credit. Plus what original research will top the end of the energy crisis? And can you do it before a Mega-inventor does?
    It sounds like a lot of pressure to me. Combined with the fear of aberrants when we get to Aeon period (which is a major factor for the distrust of hard-tech which can be subverted with quantum powers), the large scale adoption of noetic tech makes Lex's argument appear more reasonable. (It still most certainly is NOT.)

    Powered Science is Q-Tech and noetic tech, so they have been covered previously in the thread, so I feel the need to point out Inspired tech created by Talents are also beyond baseline's abilities to develop/recreate. Just making a note that Artifacts are not something baselines general can create, in any form.

    Leave a comment:


  • Lian
    replied
    Originally posted by muon View Post
    With the rules for Q-tech and nova-tech creation, science does work differently for Novas.
    Originally posted by FallenEco View Post

    And noetic (psi) 'devices' that shows up in Aeon Æxpansion. Psions and Psiads are required to develop these technologies.
    are particular branches of science. The more people you have working on something even of lesser quality the more stuff you get done. Improvement of baseline understanding of things feeds into what you can do with Nova tech and Noetic devices. There's never going to be one guy who figures out everything. Even Transcendent God Novas aren't... going to be Omniscient.

    I Mean if we wanted to get to a fictional setting where humanity needs nothing... look at Star Trek, everything is provided for you and you have magical boxes that can create any fantasy you want. Nova and psitech don't go that far. That only a limited number of people can engage with the science is no different than now where only a limited number of people can engage with science. It just means baseline Scientists have to go for something else.

    Leave a comment:

Working...
X