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Enhancement Limits, Mixed Actions and Defense Questions

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  • Enhancement Limits, Mixed Actions and Defense Questions

    Hi! I have a few questions about the Triniry Continuum CORE system.

    1) Exist any limit of how much Enhancement you can gain in a single roll? In the Scion 2ed states a total limit of five Enhancement.

    2) When a character makes a Mixed Action how handle the Enhancement bonus? My main question is: If a Martial Artist character want attack two enemies using Unarmed attack, I must apply the Unarmed Weapon Enhancement Bonus to each attack? How other Enhancements, like a bonus received from a Feint Stunt, interacts with that?

    3) In the CORE says: "The player may roll the most appropriate Reslience Attribute without any Skills..." How define the most appropriate Resilient Attribute? In the Scion 2ed says the "highest Resilient Attribute".

  • Mateus Luz
    replied
    Originally posted by Bunyip View Post
    Taken Out is a status, not a stunt.
    I know, but I had in mind there was a Take Out Stunt to take out trivial characters. I was probably wrong.

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  • Bunyip
    replied
    Taken Out is a status, not a stunt.

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  • Mateus Luz
    replied
    Originally posted by werlynn View Post

    What is the “take out stunt?” I don’t see it on any of the attack actions in chapter 4.
    I was quite sure there was one, but it is not there, maybe was removed maybe I confused. The idea is you can hit multiple trivial targets in a single attack, taking each of them out with a single success.

    Edit: the stunt is no more, but the rules stay on Core page 140, when dealing with a group of minor characters (mob)
    “When attacking members of a mob, the player only has to beat the Difficulty once, and can spend successes to buy the Inflict Injury Stunt multiple times to inflict Taken Out on the various members of the mob.”
    Last edited by Mateus Luz; 09-10-2019, 09:35 AM.

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  • werlynn
    replied
    Originally posted by Mateus Luz View Post

    Edit: Also, when you are attacking multiple trivial targets, you use the Take Out stunt multiple times limited by the roll result + enhancements, and don’t get multiple enhancements from the weapons.
    What is the “take out stunt?” I don’t see it on any of the attack actions in chapter 4.

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  • Florin
    replied
    Originally posted by werlynn View Post
    I guess that could lead to some cheese where you have to make a difficult jump with a low die pool so you throw in shooting at an enemy so you can score the enhancement from your gun even though you don't even expect enough successes to hit and you're just trying to game the gun enhancement for your jump. That's bad.
    But part of me likes the action movie feel of that. I know that breaks the verisimilitude of the game for some people, but I find that kind of thing fun. I say that as a GM, because I generally run the more cinematic games in our group.

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  • Mateus Luz
    replied
    Originally posted by werlynn View Post
    I guess that could lead to some cheese where you have to make a difficult jump with a low die pool so you throw in shooting at an enemy so you can score the enhancement from your gun even though you don't even expect enough successes to hit and you're just trying to game the gun enhancement for your jump. That's bad.
    That’s why you must save the enhancements to the actions they apply and allow the distribution of successes only from the generic enhancements and proper dice roll successes.

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  • werlynn
    replied
    I think I asked something about enhancements several months ago and the answer was along the lines of dividing the enhancements among the actions and it didn't require tracking that enhancement A came from object x and enhancement B came from situation y. You just divide them up. I guess that could lead to some cheese where you have to make a difficult jump with a low die pool so you throw in shooting at an enemy so you can score the enhancement from your gun even though you don't even expect enough successes to hit and you're just trying to game the gun enhancement for your jump. That's bad.

    Leave a comment:


  • Mateus Luz
    replied
    Originally posted by MoroseMorgan View Post
    Bunyip I think that you would only get the enhancement from your katana once, and would need to divide that +3 among your katana actions, according to the passage on enhancements I cited earlier.

    This was one of the things that makes Dynamic Control in PhotoK so good, is that each action explicitly gets its own +1 enhancement.
    Makes sense.

    Actually the katana would not be that effective as you are using it to slice multiple targets and not a proper kill hit. Makes more sense than my original opinion.

    Edit: Also, when you are attacking multiple trivial targets, you use the Take Out stunt multiple times limited by the roll result + enhancements, and don’t get multiple enhancements from the weapons.

    I was wrong and mislead Bunyip
    Last edited by Mateus Luz; 09-09-2019, 01:53 PM.

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  • MoroseMorgan
    replied
    Bunyip I think that you would only get the enhancement from your katana once, and would need to divide that +3 among your katana actions, according to the passage on enhancements I cited earlier.

    This was one of the things that makes Dynamic Control in PhotoK so good, is that each action explicitly gets its own +1 enhancement.

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  • Mateus Luz
    replied
    Honestly my exemple was on the weapon enhancement, so I didn’t think a lot about the other enhancements, and the multiple attacks were against multiple targets at reach.

    Situational enhancements, like Feint and anything granted by conditions and fields, apply only once, as you described. I think the way you put in the last paragraph is perfect, makes sense.

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  • Bunyip
    replied
    Originally posted by Mateus Luz View Post
    My understand is a bit different, imagine you have 2 actions, jumping an obstacle and attacking with a katana, to jump she is using a trampoline so she gets 1 enhancement, but the difficulty is 2, and for the attack she gets 3 from the katana and difficulty 3 (defence).
    Your understanding doesn’t appear consistent with the examples in the book.

    Edit to add: *But*, Scion Origin mixed actions section clearly spells out that any Enhancements in mixed actions only apply to the action they Enhance. I think this makes more sense in practice but runs a risk of unintended rules abuse when you have a high Enhancement piece of equipment and use mixed action to do multiple of the same action. For example, the katana above with 3 Enhancement, you’d be quite rightly tempted to to a mixed action to strike a bunch of times, exploiting the system to gain +3 Enhancement on every smaller number of successes you roll.

    I think the spirit of the rules intent is for mixed actions to largely do different things, not multiples of the same thing. Or where you do multiples of the same thing, they’re against different targets. So in your example above, if you used the trampoline to jump and then did two attacks with the katana, the intent is you jump and then attack two different people. If you’re just attacking the one target, you only make one attack and work with the Inflict Damage and Critical stunts restrictions.

    And this still doesn’t strictly help determine where things like *feint* go. Keeping within the spirit of action movie combat that Trinity tends to follow, I’d suggest that feint gets added to the specific attack pool as well as other Enhancements relevant to that action.

    For example, your trampoline and katana scenario. Let’s say you have 2 Enhancement from your ally’s previous Feint against and you’re splitting into three actions - the jump, and two slashes with the katana against two separate opponents. (If you only had one opponent you could only attack with the katana once.) You roll the smallest pool and get 3 successes.

    The jump was Difficulty 2 and you have +1 Enhancement from the trampoline, so you spend one success there, add the Enhancement and achieve the jump.

    Both opponents have defense 3 (therefore Difficulty 3. You have 2 successes left over, and you have 2 Enhancement for the Feint. I’d say it’s fair to apply +2 from the Feint and +3 from the katana to Enemy A, and just +3 from the katana for enemy B. You split your two successes one each, gaining 6 for Enemy A and 4 for Enemy B. Both are wearing soft armor 2. For Enemy A you spend 2 for Inflict Damage, and the other 4 on Critical. You score a deep wound on that enemy. For Enemy B you spend 2 for Inflict Damage, slicing into him, and then apply your other 2 successes into Feint against this enemy, as your cut has taken him off balance and your ally can take advantage of it next turn.

    I think that’s a fair use of the system. Thoughts?
    Last edited by Bunyip; 09-08-2019, 02:23 AM.

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  • Mateus Luz
    replied
    My understand is a bit different, imagine you have 2 actions, jumping an obstacle and attacking with a katana, to jump she is using a trampoline so she gets 1 enhancement, but the difficulty is 2, and for the attack she gets 3 from the katana and difficulty 3 (defence).

    She get 1 success, enough to get the enhancements, she need to jump to attack so she uses the success to jump and gain 1 enhancement from the trampoline. The 3 enhancements from the katana are enough to go thru the defence and hit.

    If the difficulty for the jump was 3, she would fail the jump, because she can’t use the katana enhancements to jump, failing automatically the attack.

    Now change the 1st action to an attack, my guess would be she can use the weapon enhancements on each attack, but still need to accumulate successes to beat the defences, and cannot use the enhancements form one attack in the other, basically if she has 2 defence 4 adversaries and 1 success and 2 attacks with katanas, she will hit just one of them, and will have no spare successes to spend in stunts.

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  • Bunyip
    replied
    Having now re-read the various mixed actions sections in Core:

    Originally posted by shadowninja View Post
    2) When a character makes a Mixed Action how handle the Enhancement bonus? My main question is: If a Martial Artist character want attack two enemies using Unarmed attack, I must apply the Unarmed Weapon Enhancement Bonus to each attack? How other Enhancements, like a bonus received from a Feint Stunt, interacts with that?
    The intent appears to be that you gain a single Enhancement bonus. In your example, Your martial artist rolls the single dice pool (assuming the two MA attacks are using the same dice pool - if they’re not, use the lowest). If you roll any successes, add the weapon Enhancement. That gives you the total successes you have to distribute among the attacks. You only gain the Enhancement bonus from equipment once, not with every attack.

    The intent around actual different activities is a little less clear. From the example on p.103, it appears that you may add the highest Enhancement from your actions. In that example, the character takes two close combat actions (no Enhancement), draws his pistol (reflexive and no Enhancement) and takes one shot. The gun has 2 Enhancement and he adds that to his four successes for a total of six.

    Putting that all together, I’d suggest that the intent for mixed actions is you take the lowest dice pool and roll that, add the highest Enhancement, and split the resulting successes between the actions. To answer your question around Feint, by strict reading you’d choose whether Feint or your weapon bonus was higher, but I’d be inclined to say that Feint is an exception and adds Enhancement in addition to a mixed action in addition to the single other Enhancement, and it’s specifically come from your allies setting up your opponents for a devastating blow.

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  • Mateus Luz
    replied
    just want to remember, just because you have 5 enhancements it’s not auto success on difficulty 1-5, you still need to roll at least 1 success to be able to use the enhancements.

    So, if you roll 1 dice and have 5 enhancements you have 30% chance of success on difficulties 1-6.

    Scale can make the things a bit more interesting, because you can say a super fast Nova trying to outrun a person will not need to roll (and actually you can say that if the challenge is trivial), but it’s always possible to fail the roll if the SG ask for it.

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