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Tier and Scale - Novas vs Mundanes

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  • Tier and Scale - Novas vs Mundanes

    I am confused as to what Tier does, in general.

    So, do Novas benefit from Dramatic Scale differences when using any power on a Mundane, a baseline human? Does he add, say, 6 enhancements when using a Quantum Bolt on them? Or is their use of stun on a bystander an automatic success, since they have a 3 scale difference? Is this working as intended, considering the normally very limited dice pool the powers have (6 dice give a little more than 2 successes on avg)?

  • #2
    Tier has no relation to scale or enhancements. Tier determines your target number for successes.

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    • #3
      That is one benefit, but not the only one.

      Well, in the Trinity Core, on Scale and Tier: "In general, characters of higher Tiers also gain in power Scale. This power represents their supernatural ability, and sometimes their raw strength against other characters." and "These relative Scales apply when a character is utilizing her greatest powers against others.". Difference between Scales gives enhancements, two enhancements by step.

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      • #4
        I think you might have an older version. It now says, "In general, characters of higher Tiers have the ability to also gain higher Scale." So, it doesn't grant scale automatically, but it's a justification for having or gaining more scale.

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        • #5
          Yeah, it sets Target Numbers, and then is used as an expectation of their access to Scale with their powers. If you look at it, Tier 2 characters have extremely limited access to Scale, but Tier 3 characters (Novas and Proxies) have direct access to at least 1 level of scale.

          To speak to your original example, Quantum Attack at 1 dot has no scale. Quantum Attack at 4 dots would get you that +6, although really at that point it is probably a trivial encounter and just take them out.
          Last edited by MoroseMorgan; 09-11-2019, 12:30 PM.


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          • #6
            Hum, but in the Trinity book, the Aberrant QCs all have huge dice pools and the advantage of enhancements. If the huge pools are there to model the powers (no way a Nova can regularly roll 13+ dice at something, AFAIK), then for me it looks like the Enhancements should be there to model the Tier difference.

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            • #7
              QCs do not follow the same rules as PCs. You can't use QCs to infer things about PCs.

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              • #8
                Originally posted by pcontop View Post
                I am confused as to what Tier does, in general.
                Mechanically all it does is determine target number. Tier is BASED on relative power via things like access to Scale, but all it DOES is set target number. It’s mostly there so you can make appropriate judgements weighing character’s relative power level.


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                • #9
                  Originally posted by Florin View Post
                  QCs do not follow the same rules as PCs. You can't use QCs to infer things about PCs.
                  Also, Aeon was written before Aberrant, so the Aberrant QCs in Aeon were constructed to be foes for Psions, not to accurately represent mechanics that didn't exist yet.

                  -------------

                  While more common in Scion than TC, Tier does do thing besides set the TN for your roles. When the game feels like there should be some form of plot armor baked into the rule, Tier is usually the metric. So certain things are less effective/impactful on beings with a higher Tier. But this is not a base-line rule you can always count on like the TN aspect.

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                  • #10
                    Can't we? It's the best piece of intended power comparison we have so far. In a game that is made to put psions vs novas, the novas are dreadful because they have these advantages.

                    More and more, it would be very interesting to have an example of play. There's too much of the ruleset that's very open to interpretation.

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                    • #11
                      Originally posted by pcontop View Post
                      Can't we? It's the best piece of intended power comparison we have so far.
                      No, I don't think it's intended. For example, QCs are designed to go up against a group. Individual psions and novas are not. Also, they are meant to be created quickly and not be granular. Which is to say QCs are intended to be different from PCs.

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                      • #12
                        I don't think QCs are meant to go one-on-many with lots of PCs or anything. I've gotten the strong impression that they're supposed to work just like PCs, but the numbers are just simplified into the most relevant things.

                        Originally posted by pcontop View Post
                        Can't we? It's the best piece of intended power comparison we have so far. In a game that is made to put psions vs novas, the novas are dreadful because they have these advantages.

                        More and more, it would be very interesting to have an example of play. There's too much of the ruleset that's very open to interpretation.
                        Danielle Lauzon said elsewhere that Aeon and Aberrant were written with slightly different mechanics, and that psions would probably get a way to increase Scale (probably by giving up 2 Enhancement per Scale increase) to be able to hurt novas in a crossover game.

                        So, basically, it's probably not intended as an in-setting "novas have this big advantage over psions" thing. That's also reflected by the sample psionic characters in Aberrant having Scale rather than using Aeon's rules, and novas not really having much Scale (other than size) in Aeon. It's just a quirk of the rules evolution between games
                        Last edited by Zeea; 09-11-2019, 09:30 PM.

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                        • #13
                          Think Tier this way:
                          Tier 1 is never higher than Scale 1.
                          Tier 2 can raise their power up to Scale 2, occasionally on not so combative way raise a bit more.
                          Tier 3 can raise their power on a limited way, still on human comprehension.
                          Tier 4 can raise their power to a unintelligible level, godlike at least.

                          As I see, that’s the only relation between Tier and Scale.

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                          • #14
                            About the Antagonists, their numbers on the recent versions were reduced a lot, a Terat now rolls 9 as primary pool and gaisn5 enhancements and possibly scale.

                            Just as a comment, the novas with Q4+ are more powerful than the Aberrants described in Aeon, I mean, novas can have much higher scale than the Aberrants described. I guess they were made less powerful to be possible to interact with Psions, otherwise the scale would be overwhelming.

                            Edit: I don’t know when it was added, but all (true) aberrant Archetypes in the last version of Aeon now have Scale. That put some extra power on the Aberrant hands and more in balance with Aberrant rules.
                            Last edited by Mateus Luz; 09-16-2019, 05:58 PM.

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                            • #15
                              Originally posted by Mateus Luz View Post
                              About the Antagonists, their numbers on the recent versions were reduced a lot, a Terat now rolls 9 as primary pool and gaisn5 enhancements and possibly scale.

                              Just as a comment, the novas with Q4+ are more powerful than the Aberrants described in Aeon, I mean, novas can have much higher scale than the Aberrants described. I guess they were made less powerful to be possible to interact with Psions, otherwise the scale would be overwhelming.

                              I mean they have beings like the Colony, living Worlds, so I don't think all Novas are weaker.


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