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  • Originally posted by LordHeru View Post
    I guess, going one thought further, one of the things that make me sad about Novas is that they do have such a forced weakness, a corrupting power. The one group in the whole setting that does.
    While Taint was certainly corruptive, and the human-centric Æon Trinity has framed it as capital-C "Corruption", it should be noted that this isn't necessarily the case in Aberrant.

    Transcendence is transformative. Novas are becoming something else, something divorced from their human ancestry. That's not necessarily wrong or bad, it's just different. I know that it may be tough to wrap your head around, especially from a 1e context, but it's there nonetheless.


    Ian A. A. Watson
    Onyx Path Community Manager
    Trinity Continuum Content Lead

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    • Originally posted by IanWatson View Post

      While Taint was certainly corruptive, and the human-centric Æon Trinity has framed it as capital-C "Corruption", it should be noted that this isn't necessarily the case in Aberrant.

      Transcendence is transformative. Novas are becoming something else, something divorced from their human ancestry. That's not necessarily wrong or bad, it's just different. I know that it may be tough to wrap your head around, especially from a 1e context, but it's there nonetheless.
      I get that diegeticly, but when the rules say “hand over your character sheet” it’s hard not to take that as a lose condition.


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      • Originally posted by IanWatson View Post

        While Taint was certainly corruptive, and the human-centric Æon Trinity has framed it as capital-C "Corruption", it should be noted that this isn't necessarily the case in Aberrant.

        Transcendence is transformative. Novas are becoming something else, something divorced from their human ancestry. That's not necessarily wrong or bad, it's just different. I know that it may be tough to wrap your head around, especially from a 1e context, but it's there nonetheless.
        Well yeah theoretically. But when Transcendence takes a character away from the player how else but 'bad' can one to take it. Additionally, I don't see anything positive about having it. If there was some mechanism that actually game an interesting mechanical boost, that could showcase it is not all bad.

        Like I said I get how its technically a theme, I just wish it wasn't.

        Which is why I am turning my mind towards the positives of the rest of the TC universe rather than dwell on the one thing that I find frustrating. And there are a lot of positives. A lot of good things.

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        • Keep in mind that unless you intentionally push it, the 'natural' development of a Nova allows them to achieve the height of power with a minimal amount of transformations, and certainly nothing that unmanageable. You will be marked, but for the sort of people who are playing superhumans, "I have glowy eyes, my skin is purple, and I got really, really ripped to Hulk-like levels", is not really a disadvantage, is it? (After all, if you perfectly manage your flux, your Transcendence maxes out at 6. That's two minor transformations and one moderate one.)

          Heck, I'd be interested in underlining the point by seeing a chapter or section with new transformations in a future book (assuming Aberrant ever gets an 'Aexpansion' of its own) to underscore the 'not necessarily bad' thing. High-level ones should almost always be a bit of a stumble, but even then I've had characters where I'm genuinely okay with Power Lock on a given power or Hardened Epidermis so the Colossus expy is walking around with steely skin properly. (One reason I liked the idea of some sort of edge that allows you to voluntarily take on a transformation ahead of schedule, with the benefit being you get to skip out on taking an actual transformation, come that time.)

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          • Originally posted by IanWatson View Post

            While Taint was certainly corruptive, and the human-centric Æon Trinity has framed it as capital-C "Corruption", it should be noted that this isn't necessarily the case in Aberrant.

            Transcendence is transformative. Novas are becoming something else, something divorced from their human ancestry. That's not necessarily wrong or bad, it's just different. I know that it may be tough to wrap your head around, especially from a 1e context, but it's there nonetheless.
            The Transformations described, like lack of control of power or severe psychological disorders, seem bad, as does Quantum Instability. In the Full Transformation, "Novas undergoing full transformation can twist and mutate in terrible ways, with no known limits. What is more, aberrants are no longer capable of any sort of human empathy or compassion. They are utterly transformed into monsters, and even the least vicious of them are cruelly indifferent to humanity." You might be able to justify indifference by transformation into something inhuman, but viciousness? It sounds like the Sabbat, where they're actually obsessed with their human beginnings. A Nova doesn't even need Full Transformation to reach maximum Quantum and undergo Quantum Transcendence (really need new terminology here).

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            • I have to defend Ian here. Transcendence is not necessarily evil, but it can be.

              Imagin you are a ant that become human, after sometime you stop caring about ants, the same way we do, it’s not evil per se, it’s just... inant (inhuman for ants), you don’t care you just have better things to think about other than not stepping on ants.

              The same way you don’t gain any extra XP for, let’s say, needing a wheel chair or being blind, you can create a Nova with an specific situation that is a transformation before the proper level of Transcendence, and you gain Momentum when the condition come to play. That’s the idea for putting disabilities in the game and not treating than as weaknesses as other games treats.

              Being purple, or being made of metal, or blind, or unable to walk without an equipment, or being gay or black is not a weakness, it’s not bad and not even a problem if you live in a controled environment (where there is no prejudice or you have all the needs attempted). If you are on a environment that treat you bad for being like this, than you must adapt, in game terms gain Momentum, if not, you are a person as any other. That’s very interesting way to deal with it.

              transcendence is another thing, it’s about being inhuman, the same way we are inant, or incow, Novas are superior to humans and they feel superior to humans as we feel superior to ants, that makes them think in a different way, not much different from what you see wen dealing with people of power (super rich, politicians, and in some cases even public servers and police), they start caring less about the regular people and be more concerned about their own problems.

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              • Originally posted by Mateus Luz View Post
                I have to defend Ian here. Transcendence is not necessarily evil, but it can be.

                Imagin you are a ant that become human, after sometime you stop caring about ants, the same way we do, it’s not evil per se, it’s just... inant (inhuman for ants), you don’t care you just have better things to think about other than not stepping on ants.

                The same way you don’t gain any extra XP for, let’s say, needing a wheel chair or being blind, you can create a Nova with an specific situation that is a transformation before the proper level of Transcendence, and you gain Momentum when the condition come to play. That’s the idea for putting disabilities in the game and not treating than as weaknesses as other games treats.

                Being purple, or being made of metal, or blind, or unable to walk without an equipment, or being gay or black is not a weakness, it’s not bad and not even a problem if you live in a controled environment (where there is no prejudice or you have all the needs attempted). If you are on a environment that treat you bad for being like this, than you must adapt, in game terms gain Momentum, if not, you are a person as any other. That’s very interesting way to deal with it.

                transcendence is another thing, it’s about being inhuman, the same way we are inant, or incow, Novas are superior to humans and they feel superior to humans as we feel superior to ants, that makes them think in a different way, not much different from what you see wen dealing with people of power (super rich, politicians, and in some cases even public servers and police), they start caring less about the regular people and be more concerned about their own problems.
                Right, but extra-diagetically the fact that it strips you of your character if it hits a certain point makes it unavoidably a punishment mechanic. I’m not saying that it shouldn’t be in the game - I’d tweak it a bit, but there being a mechanic enforcing the themes the cost of power alienating a Nova from humanity is a good thing! But I disagree with the argument it isn’t a cost and is a neutral mechanic rather than a negative one.


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                • In some ways it reminds me of the whole Dark Side mechanic in the old West End Games D6 Star Wars. In that if you got a certain number of Dark Side Points your character was taken from you and became a GM NPC.

                  I'm not really a fan of such a thing.

                  ---

                  That all said, I honestly didn't mean to make something that was a harp. I was trying to say that TC is one of those game lines that I basically love pretty much everything about most of its rules and templates and groups and setting. That it has such potential for so many possible games, and that is brilliant to me.

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                  • Originally posted by glamourweaver View Post
                    But I disagree with the argument it isn’t a cost and is a neutral mechanic rather than a negative one.
                    I agree, it’s a punishment mechanic to make it possible to overuse quantum but still be unquestionably bad for the player. Not just the part when you lose your character, but all the way until that, be horrible in dealing with people is horrible, multiple personalities is horrible, etc.

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                    • It’s not a generic supers game. Aberrant has setting assumptions and these include that Quantum power inevitably transcends the human into something inhuman. That’s what it is.

                      If you want to play generic supers, you can simply drop the corruption/transcendence assumptions and mechanics. Job done. But it’s not Aberrant, and doesn’t hit the same themes. And that’s okay at your table.

                      Perhaps one day humanity’s unique ability to be able to evolve along psi and quantum paths - combined with the also unique new Aptitude of Quantakinesis - will mean humans can evolve into a species that can comfortably accommodate both power sources within the one being, possibly without losing their humanity. But that day isn’t now. Right now we’re at the beginning of an evolutionary process that we don’t know the end of. And we have many, many significant obstacles to our evolutionary path on the way, including loss of humanity, vicious war between the two sides, and external alien influences working to domesticate our capability into something they can use as their tool.

                      Edit to add: And this is an interesting topic of discussion, but it has very little to do with the AEon AExpansion.


                      Writer. Developer. World of Darkness | Chronicles of Darkness | The Trinity Continuum

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                      • Yeah, I’m not arguing for generic supers, I’m pro-Flux and Transcendence in the system (though I plan to tweak the mechanics for lowering Flux to focus on Ties with Baselines)! I’m just saying it is a negative mechanic. Not “negative” in the sense of “hurts the game”, I’m just saying it is a penalty in actual play consequences.


                        Check out my expansion to the Realm of Brass and Shadow

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                        • Originally posted by Mateus Luz View Post
                          I have to defend Ian here. Transcendence is not necessarily evil, but it can be.

                          Imagin you are a ant that become human, after sometime you stop caring about ants, the same way we do, it’s not evil per se, it’s just... inant (inhuman for ants), you don’t care you just have better things to think about other than not stepping on ants.
                          What about the viciousness?

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                          • Originally posted by muon View Post

                            What about the viciousness?
                            Not all transcendent Novas become vicious... Trancendence is not necessarily evil, but can be.
                            Keeping the idea of the ants, some people like to burn ants, others don’t care... that’s the idea. I tried to use examples of not caring as we have lots of examples of rampaging and vicious novas.

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                            • Originally posted by Bunyip View Post
                              Edit to add: And this is an interesting topic of discussion, but it has very little to do with the AEon AExpansion.
                              Agreed. With this in mind, I've extracted this last page of posts to a new thread so it can be discussed on its own terms.


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                              • I just had a Superior Power idea. A combined Mental and Social power that basically allows a Superior to influence and control an organization (of varying types so both a business a political organization and a military unit count) that he is in charge of in an easier, enhanced way. I think it would be fun.

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