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  • #31
    There was 2 things that helped the baby boom, first, the families used to have many children, 4 or more were common, it was a way to make sure your kids grow to adulthood before dyeing (people died all the time, kids more than others), with the WWI it become possible to grant minimum quality health services to all the population in Europe and America, reducing a lot the child mortality so more of the kids survived. Also, with all the deaths caused by WWII, the governments were giving incentives for families to grow.

    You can have a solid grow in population for several generations without a proper baby booming, just because there is enough food and space, but modern parents will be more conservative on the number of children even in this condition, as the needs are not just food and space as it was centuries ago, kids need schools, health services (more often than adults) and a safe environment, so unless the couple has a feeling of safety and have their needs attempted, it’s not going to have a baby boom. That’s why many countries in Europe have a negative grow of population, the parents are not feeling safe to get more than one kid (financial safety).

    In Aeon Era tech, the government don’t need more working hands, as they have makers and drones to do most of the work. The only reason to grow the population is genetic diversity, what can be solved thru genetic therapy. It doesn’t mean no one will have several kids, it just means the most patterns will have no need of a second or third kid, so the population will not grow as fast as you are expecting.

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    • #32
      I don't see how population growth would be much of an issue. There is no technology problems, there is no resource issues, there are no land restrictions. A few million (more than 1 but less than 5) will have the potential for 27 habitable planets to colonize, plus an assortment of moons, asteroids, and other such places. If you have a government who says "having children will be beneficial' then you also take away the political worries about it. If you also allow for same-sex couples, single parents, and couples that lack the natural ability to give birth the ability to use Artificial Womb technology then you will get even less restriction.

      On artificial womb technology, my mindset is that while the fetus remains in the special clinic area during the growth period once the baby is born they head home to be raised by their parents just like anyone else. In fact neither genetically or medically or politically or anything will mark children born in the iron womb from those who are born in-body.

      This isn't cloning banks or a training creche where the next generation are made. Rather its a method for parents who want, and can care for children, but who don't want (or can't) make use of more natural methods for procreation.

      I really do think that population issues will not be a thing, at least not for centuries or more.

      -------------------------

      A major inspiration for the idea of the Jumpship that will take the people from Sol to that of the Grand System of Olympia is the Nauvoo from the Expanse. This pic in fact:

      Last edited by LordHeru; 10-14-2019, 02:28 PM.

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      • #33
        Originally posted by LordHeru View Post

        On artificial womb technology, my mindset is that while the fetus remains in the special clinic area during the growth period once the baby is born they head home to be raised by their parents just like anyone else.
        That's the point.They still have to be raised by their parents. Does one of them give up his or her career to become a stay at home parent? As the poster above says, children in a post-industrial society require a lot more financial and time investment than pre-industrial ones do. Children are expected to be educated at least until adulthood, ideally graduating from college. Apart from outliers like Angelina Jolie, the wealthy don't have large families that they could easily afford. Even in a post scarcity society, there's only 24 hours in a day divided by x number of children. Devote too little time to them and you might well have the state raise them like my Brave New World analogy.

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        • #34
          Originally posted by muon View Post

          That's the point.They still have to be raised by their parents. Does one of them give up his or her career to become a stay at home parent? As the poster above says, children in a post-industrial society require a lot more financial and time investment than pre-industrial ones do. Children are expected to be educated at least until adulthood, ideally graduating from college. Apart from outliers like Angelina Jolie, the wealthy don't have large families that they could easily afford. Even in a post scarcity society, there's only 24 hours in a day divided by x number of children. Devote too little time to them and you might well have the state raise them like my Brave New World analogy.
          My issue isn't so much that there will be day care creche's or youth centers or community assistance but the connotations that you are bringing about by using the Brave New World analogy. Parents gaining societal help in the raising of their kids does not equate to a distopia sort of environment that said analogy relates to. It should also be noted that while they are colonizing a new system which has no already built infrastructure they aren't doing it using heavy labor intensive processes - they brought with them their technologial databases and the machines necessary to build the machines and the parts of the machines that are necessary for a 'modern' life.

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          • #35
            I got you, but a modern parent is not the same as a pre-industrial one. they needed kids because people died ALL THE TIME.

            My grandma (Born in 1929, 90yo yesterday) had 5 siblings that reach adulthood, her mother lost another 6 in infancy, and those surviving 5, she have now no living nephew or any grand nephew (her nephews died before having kids), it means, even having 6 kids, my grand grand parents have only 4 grand children (my father and 3 uncles) alive and 5 grand grand children (me, my brother and cousins). Its not part of our life nowadays, but it was quite common in the countryside to lose children, and so it was common to have several of them to improve your chances (not even talking about condom and pills). They didn’t have the same love for each of the kids we have today, they were busy... too busy to care a bit more than needed.

            We care about our kids and don’t want them to have shit lives, that’s why, even with external pregnancy, most couples will not have more than 2 kids, a very few have 3, and even less 4 or more. If you add to this the number of people that don’t want kids or die too young, the population grow is very limited.

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            • #36
              Except people will have a standard of living far above even the affluent have now a days, as well as plenty of societal safety nets. You really can't underestimate post Scarcity lifestyles, seriously when Energy and Fabrication are cheap and efficient, and when you have societal incentives to raise children and provided housing you don't have the same fears folks have now when they raise children. Aeon even mentions the reduced hourly work week and how longer hours are essentially hobbies or for the insanely driven. Your standard of living won't suffer for raising children, medical benefits, automation up the wazoo, and universally available leisure activities these are not present in any comparable modern or historical examples. It would be like mixing the Western Expansion of Manifest Destiny where the government incentivised homesteads, mixed with the baby boom of WWII, mixed with essentially winning several scholarships/medical coverages/and general safety insurances.

              Seriously simple automation harvests incalculable resources with minimum human guidance, hell even zero human guidance if you set them to a simple task like harvest ore or build a simple structure like a wall or sheet. Fusion allows for the growth of all the staple nutrition you could want through indoor vertical hydroponics as you can power all the lights you need, you have all the resources you need to construct and supply it and human and automaton labor wouldn't at all be a pressing issue.



              Simple list of things to watch for research.

              O'neil Cylinders for essentially all the living space you could want.
              https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gTDl...OwqxQ&index=16

              How Nuclear Fusion really changes the game.
              https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8Pmg...RKKbV4&index=6

              Post Scarcity Discussion (essential in understanding how the future will work with high technology rather than some sort of artificial Luddite Future Dystopia)
              https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_Kt7...L-10PC&index=3


              Life Extension (which will certainly affect breeding when you are able to conceive and raise healthy offspring at ages far in advance of the present's history)

              https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kKmd...L-10PC&index=6

              Arcologies because I friggin love the concept and it explains a lot of how you can compartmentalize semi autonomous populations.
              https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TqKQ...L-10PC&index=9


              Explanation of Early Colony Life

              https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6VBC...hPWEkG&index=3


              And here is a note Colonizing Venus is literally viable. Just let that sink in, Venus is insanely inhospitable but its a viable option in the future. An Earthlike Planet that you can breath in, eat from and generally say survive on if you got stranded precolonization is infinitely more amenable to settlement.

              https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BI-o...W6FmCE&index=2




              Like seriously, a lot of scientists, futurists, and overall very intelligent people have long pondered the future. There is so much most people don't consider about the future. The exponential growth of resources from automation, fusion, medical advancement and available planetary living space is insane. A grand system set up like this could pretty realistically overshadow Earth in a few generations.


              It is a time for great deeds!

              Comment


              • #37
                Originally posted by LordHeru View Post
                I don't see how population growth would be much of an issue. There is no technology problems, there is no resource issues, there are no land restrictions. A few million (more than 1 but less than 5) will have the potential for 27 habitable planets to colonize, plus an assortment of moons, asteroids, and other such places. If you have a government who says "having children will be beneficial' then you also take away the political worries about it. If you also allow for same-sex couples, single parents, and couples that lack the natural ability to give birth the ability to use Artificial Womb technology then you will get even less restriction.

                On artificial womb technology, my mindset is that while the fetus remains in the special clinic area during the growth period once the baby is born they head home to be raised by their parents just like anyone else. In fact neither genetically or medically or politically or anything will mark children born in the iron womb from those who are born in-body.

                This isn't cloning banks or a training creche where the next generation are made. Rather its a method for parents who want, and can care for children, but who don't want (or can't) make use of more natural methods for procreation.

                I really do think that population issues will not be a thing, at least not for centuries or more.

                -------------------------

                A major inspiration for the idea of the Jumpship that will take the people from Sol to that of the Grand System of Olympia is the Nauvoo from the Expanse. This pic in fact:



                Exactly people really underestimate the impact of government and cultural incentives towards breeding. Seriously if you have a system that is stable enough to keep a solar system roughly unified ( remember a feat unachieved on even a planetary scale) growing the population when space, food and energy isn't an issue is a piece of cake.


                It is a time for great deeds!

                Comment


                • #38
                  Originally posted by LordHeru View Post

                  My issue isn't so much that there will be day care creche's or youth centers or community assistance but the connotations that you are bringing about by using the Brave New World analogy. Parents gaining societal help in the raising of their kids does not equate to a distopia sort of environment that said analogy relates to. It should also be noted that while they are colonizing a new system which has no already built infrastructure they aren't doing it using heavy labor intensive processes - they brought with them their technologial databases and the machines necessary to build the machines and the parts of the machines that are necessary for a 'modern' life.
                  You may not like how it sounds, but more children would mean moving away from the traditional nuclear family to state intervention with things like creches.ala Brave New World. Heavy labor intensive processes would actually increase family size, since some children could go into skilled labor.

                  Comment


                  • #39
                    Mateus Luz On this, yes, I very much agree. It is the same for my own family, with what you describe as being true for my Grandmother.

                    That said, what is amusing is that while I am an only child all my cousins are in two to three children families. So that is amusing.

                    Here is the thing, if you have the social, technological, and economic push for larger families then I don't see why you wouldn't. If the government helps with support and the presence of an iron womb allows for children without pregnancy then I don't see any reason why not.

                    I might even add something like the government will provide all citizens born within a certain amount of years before and after Arrival with their own plot of land, there is benefit to having children.

                    ----

                    muon

                    I honestly don't see where you are coming from. At all. You think government support automatically makes things Brave New World. I don't. I see government support in certain areas as useful positive things. I don't see how any of what I wrote would change the fact that parents would still raise their children.

                    So I honestly don't see what you are describing as being what happens.

                    ----

                    Eldagusto ​ Some really good stuff here. Really good stuff.

                    Some of the info applies directly to the Grand System and others apply to the greater human culture on Earth. But yeah those points are a good one.

                    As you say power is limitless (solar, geothermal, wind, hydro, fusion). Manufacturing is done by fabricators, be it small home units, larger community ones, or mammoth government owned warehouse facilities. Medical care is basically free and easy and can cure pretty much anything but death itself (and even that can be pushed back a bit). Transportation is easy, both planetary and ground to space, and in space. Everything is 'smart' in terms of wireless internet and communciations infrastructure, even on newly colonized wild planets (orbital satelite network first thing built). Drones and robots do the more heavy lifting and labor intensive projects, which free up people to do other things.

                    But even more the Fleet has with them the accumulated knowledge of everything humanity had produced up till they left Sol, and the manufacturing capability to take any of it and produce it.

                    Heck, they can even turn dangerous and inhospitable worlds into mimics of Earth, and they can do it in a guided but essentially automated method.

                    PS. Arcologies are amazing. The only reason they aren't present in this particular setting is because with how much land and how few people are present there really isn't any super reason. But yeah, arcologies are awesome. (I even have my own mental version of one, hehe)

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                    • #40
                      So I have some decisions to make and I was thinking why not get your thoughts.

                      Idea 1 - Travel.
                      A) They leave Sol, travel a few LYs and then hit an anomoly which zooms them 60,000 ly to the Grand System in a moment.
                      B) They leave Sol, travel 10 years and 60,000 LY before arrival at the Grand System. This ten years of travel is one in which they are awake and living onboard ships with rotating habits, and its one where they jump then spend a week in an interesting system, then jump again.

                      Idea 2 - Psi
                      A) Its Psiads.
                      B) Its Psions.
                      I know this might seem familiar but I am still not sure whether it is more fun and interesting to have the Psi users be Psiads or Psions, that is to have them be formed in a Prometheus Chamber (no alien involvement) or natural.

                      Of course another option is that back at home Psiads did exist but were rare since they were naturally formed but over the last ten years events happened or work occurred that would lead to the development of the Prometheus Chamber (probably call it something else,I liked Chakra so maybe Chakra Chamber could work) to make it easier for Psi users to be created. The benefit of this is that both Psiads and Psions exist in the same setting.

                      I should note that while I am in no way against having plot lines or adventurers where some political, social, or criminal threat occurs I do not plan on there being dark times or general uprisings. To this end the group, the man, who sponsored the trip and who ran it over its duration would still serve as the central governing body and person once they arrived at the solar system.

                      I also figure that when it comes to colonization it is the high government that will provide the initial survey and exploration. Then once their teams say its good to go the planets will be opened up for colonization. Once a planet is open anybody in the Fleet can head there and settle, under certain rules and regulations that organize the planets into districts, provinces, and regions. While there is a lot of freedom there is also laws that work, for example, to stop a single person saying "I own the whole continent on world x".

                      I also figure that once a system is cleared and a planet opened then the overall Fleet government will establish system authorities, planetary governments, regional assemblies, provincial administrations, and district mayor with council offices. Its the same way when it comes to legislatures, so people are represented.

                      I twill help that one of the first things established is a grand system, system, and planetary wide satellite and communicators systems. So even if it might take days or weeks (for the farthest location) time to travel it takes seconds to minutes to communicate.

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                      • #41
                        1A and 2A. The anomaly can cause the increased number of Psiads, and explain why not possible to comeback.

                        Also limited use of Teleport is good for plot...

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                        • #42
                          Originally posted by Mateus Luz View Post
                          1A and 2A. The anomaly can cause the increased number of Psiads, and explain why not possible to comeback.

                          Also limited use of Teleport is good for plot...
                          Nod. Nod. Cool.

                          Yeah, the anomaly can cause all sorts of things that could push the campaign along. Heck, studying it could unlock better or faster or something FTL.

                          I also like the idea that it leads to the enhancing of the human genome to the point that psychic potential is made greater. While humanity doesn't become a full on psychic species over night it will make their potential higher.

                          The whole not being able to go back is important. I don't really want 'will something come from Sol' be a thing for the campaign.

                          Plus, for all that its cool that they explored some 60,000 ly of space, this way leads to the campaign going from 'We are at Sol' to 'we are in the Grand System' with no intermediate period. Even more it means that the people who left Sol are the people who arrived at the Grand System, with again no intermediate.

                          --

                          The funny thing is that I get all sorts of what I think are cool ideas, ideas which could push a setting in various ways, and sometimes I have to stop and go "no, this way is the way we want right now, put those other ideas away'. hehe

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                          • #43
                            So I was going through Netflix when I saw the show The 100, and while elements of it are not exactly to my liking the nature of humans surviving a devastating war by moving and living in space stations does. It also reminds me of a Rifts/Atfter the Bomb book called Mutants in Orbit about that exact thing.

                            Now I know my idea was of human colonization of its own multi-star Grand System but I couldn't help but think of how fun it would be to campaign in a setting where humans go to space, build orbital colonies, war destroys the Earth, the colonies in orbit survive and now have to function on there own. Throw in some Talents and maybe Superiors and maybe the occassional Psiad and you get something interesting.

                            Additionally, I was googling station designs and I saw this, the Orbis from Elite Dangerous. I think if one adds say one or two more big ring and a few more small rings you would get a brilliant and functional and campaign worthy station design.

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                            • #44
                              I haven't read the whole thread but might I suggest language and cultural issues? A spaceship of a million people could carry groups of many different cultures fleeing Earth. In the standard Trinity setting neither the USA or the UK is a democracy, I could see groups wanting either a return to democracy or that and a socialist society fleeing to the stars. Although the New England Puritans didn't embrace religious freedom, the Pilgrims of the Plymouth Plantation were separatists seeking church state separation, a wildly radical ideal for its day. Many wild-eyed radical visions from the sublime to the insane could be expressed in this setting.

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                              • #45
                                Originally posted by Astromancer View Post
                                I haven't read the whole thread but might I suggest language and cultural issues? A spaceship of a million people could carry groups of many different cultures fleeing Earth. In the standard Trinity setting neither the USA or the UK is a democracy, I could see groups wanting either a return to democracy or that and a socialist society fleeing to the stars. Although the New England Puritans didn't embrace religious freedom, the Pilgrims of the Plymouth Plantation were separatists seeking church state separation, a wildly radical ideal for its day. Many wild-eyed radical visions from the sublime to the insane could be expressed in this setting.
                                I get what your are saying but I was not planning on using canon TC history. This also isn't an exile operation but rather a well funded, organized, and technologically supported corporate operation by an organization called Imperious Industries (one of, if not, the largest company in the solar system). Recruitment and training is highly organized so everyone will know English and be tested for the presence and lack of presence of certain mental, physical, and social traits.

                                Now, all that said, the fact is once the initial settlements occur the unified stellar government of the Grand System (a Directorate) will allow for some cultural drift and self-rule on a local, settlement level. Which means there will be the potential for various offshoots and differences and the like.

                                One of the images I have is that settlements make use of faux-wood and stone and such in their constructions, as well as equipment that looks simple. But that under the hood the settlements have just as much high tech infrastructure as anywhere else in the grand system. This includes practically instant comms and a grand system-wide internet network.

                                By the way one of the reasons I am not having standard TC history be the standard is because once the Fleet leaves Sol there is no chance of going back, which is what I want. If the details of Earth are vague then there won't be a sort of push towards working to go back and fix the problems there. At least that's my thinking anyway.

                                -----

                                I do plan on making some changes to what I throughout this document. So instead of Jumpships its instead Arkships, which still look like a mobile O'niell Cylinder. There is no FTL pre-Event and so the twelve Arkships are traveling STL when they hit the anomaly and get booted into FTL. Humanity is strictly a solar system society at this time, with this being the first planned operation to expand outside of it. It will probably be the early 2200s at campaign start.

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