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What they need to clear up when they do a world atlas (Problems with Aeon's Earth.

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  • What they need to clear up when they do a world atlas (Problems with Aeon's Earth.

    This is going to be a series of Posts about problems, real or perceived, with the setting of Trinity Aeon. The focus is going to be the geopolitics and similar issues. These will range from unclear maps to illogical aspects of the described behaviors or history of nation states in the setting. The hope is that these problems will all be cleared up in an Atlas of AEON Earth.

    I hope many people will join in and offer the defects they see in order that the authors of the game will correct these problems.

  • #2
    The first set of issues I'd liked cleared up involve the World Map. Example: we're told about Venezuelan Plague lands but the map shows Argentine Plague lands. The map of the FSA could use state and Province border lines, especially as this could help people see which states are no longer anything but post-apocalyptic wastelands.

    Maps of Each continent would be very useful, especially if they offered political details and relative levels of corruption. An example of useful political detail might be clearing up borders. From the colors of my copy of the AEON book's map, it looks like Central America down to Panama is controlled by the FSA. But the text of the book specifies conquests of Mexico and Canada only. The crease in the middle of the book's world map hid vital political details in Europe. In the Caribbean, is Puerto Rico controlled by the FSA or South America? It strikes me that the Caribbean would be a major area of conflict in this world with a bitter North/South struggle to control the area.

    More Later.

    Comment


    • #3
      I don't really know any of the Trinity folks and don't really have skin in this particular game. But as a game designer who knows a ton of game designers, I can say that your way of conveying this stuff is more likely to just stress writers out than get any changes implemented. Like, it's not pointing out contradictions that's the issue, but the specific language you're using for it. I'm fairly used to being misunderstood for accidentally using the wrong tone and I understand when other people do it, so I'm not trying to be critical here, but just give you a heads up.

      Like, personally, I think there's a lot of issues that came from Trinity 1e being designed in the '90s and Aeon 2e needing to inherit most of that setting to be recognizable. So you get some kinda cringey stereotypes and weird future versions of 1990s countries, even with them being cleaned up somewhat. And it's a huge book with lots of authors, so presumably there's going to be a few contradictions that could be clariied.
      Last edited by Zeea; 11-08-2019, 08:26 PM.

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      • #4
        Originally posted by Zeea View Post
        I don't really know any of the Trinity folks and don't really have skin in this particular game. But as a game designer who knows a ton of game designers, I can say that your way of conveying this stuff is more likely to just stress writers out than get any changes implemented. Like, it's not pointing out contradictions that's the issue, but the specific language you're using for it. I'm fairly used to being misunderstood for accidentally using the wrong tone and I understand when other people do it, so I'm not trying to be critical here, but just give you a heads up.

        Like, personally, I think there's a lot of issues that came from Trinity 1e being designed in the '90s and Aeon 2e needing to inherit most of that setting to be recognizable. So you get some kinda cringey stereotypes and weird future versions of 1990s countries, even with them being cleaned up somewhat. And it's a huge book with lots of authors, so presumably there's going to be a few contradictions that could be clariied.
        I'm sorry if my tone is wrong. But I do want to call attention to many serious problems. Confusing maps, weird geopolitical twists, and anvilicious futures aren't small problems. Plus, you haven't made the least suggestion of what might be the proper tone or method. My posts were factual and neutral in tone. Why should that offend?

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        • #5
          Sorry, I came across a little too strong there and didn't mean to derail your thread.

          Comment


          • #6
            You were in the right Zeea. Someone framing their blunt criticisms as "just stating facts" is just doubling down on being rude and arrogant.

            There was an open errata pass at these books. Not sure if your issues were included.

            If you do feel so strongly about this, instead of creating a public thread, I'd recommend PMing Ian on your platform of choice, potentially with a bit more courtesy.


            Raksha are my fae-vorite.

            Reincarnation of magnificentmomo.

            Comment


            • #7
              Originally posted by MoroseMorgan View Post
              You were in the right Zeea. Someone framing their blunt criticisms as "just stating facts" is just doubling down on being rude and arrogant.

              There was an open errata pass at these books. Not sure if your issues were included.

              If you do feel so strongly about this, instead of creating a public thread, I'd recommend PMing Ian on your platform of choice, potentially with a bit more courtesy.
              Frankly I am trying to be clear and straight forward. Why do I have to beg for the right to speak?

              I am sorry if you find this thread objectionable. I will certainly work to be polite. But if honestly stating issues in non insulting language isn't polite enough, what's left of free speech?

              Comment


              • #8
                The problem is that you are using insulting language. You're claiming some rather minor things in the larger scheme of actually playing the game are huge vital issues.

                The map has Plague Lands either misplaced, or one described in text isn't on the map. A nuisance if you're playing in Venezuela and want to know exactly where those Plague Lands are, but that's about it.

                The lack of internal divisions? You know that most countries on Earth have internal divisions right? Why should we be concerned about the former US and Canadian states/provinces/territories but not, say the states of Mexico? The lines on the map help you place where current modern day countries are in the new map of the era, which is more important.

                The way you've talked about the state of the world 100 years in the future, after superpowered beings exploded onto the scene, and then exploded the scene, is highly dismissive and contrarian to accepting the premise of the game; and especially lacking in examples as you just state that there are "twists" that are "weird" as a matter of fact.

                Here's a decent way to approach the one trivial but substantive issue raised:

                "Hey Ian, I noticed the book talking about the Venezuelan Plague Lands, but the map only shows significant corruption zones in Argentina. Could you clarify this for me? If there's supposed to be significant Plague Lands in Venezuela, can you give me idea of how significant it would look on the map?"

                --------------

                And really, you're going to lose any hope for the thread when you make declarations of free speech. There's nothing good that's going to come from that sort of obnoxious and hyperbolic appeal to rights.

                Comment


                • #9
                  Originally posted by Heavy Arms View Post
                  The problem is that you are using insulting language. You're claiming some rather minor things in the larger scheme of actually playing the game are huge vital issues.

                  The map has Plague Lands either misplaced, or one described in text isn't on the map. A nuisance if you're playing in Venezuela and want to know exactly where those Plague Lands are, but that's about it.

                  The lack of internal divisions? You know that most countries on Earth have internal divisions right? Why should we be concerned about the former US and Canadian states/provinces/territories but not, say the states of Mexico? The lines on the map help you place where current modern day countries are in the new map of the era, which is more important.

                  The way you've talked about the state of the world 100 years in the future, after superpowered beings exploded onto the scene, and then exploded the scene, is highly dismissive and contrarian to accepting the premise of the game; and especially lacking in examples as you just state that there are "twists" that are "weird" as a matter of fact.

                  Here's a decent way to approach the one trivial but substantive issue raised:

                  "Hey Ian, I noticed the book talking about the Venezuelan Plague Lands, but the map only shows significant corruption zones in Argentina. Could you clarify this for me? If there's supposed to be significant Plague Lands in Venezuela, can you give me idea of how significant it would look on the map?"

                  --------------

                  And really, you're going to lose any hope for the thread when you make declarations of free speech. There's nothing good that's going to come from that sort of obnoxious and hyperbolic appeal to rights.
                  At least you specified your issues so I can respectfully take them into account. I might fail to meet your required standard but let me sincerely thank you for your clarity.

                  I intend to continue the thread. But I'll try to be mannerly. I also plan to be frank. So if you'll remain clear in your critiques it will help.

                  Comment


                  • #10
                    Well, I'm not sure where you're from, so I'll try to give a perspective from my own country. Using the term "defects" in American often implies something serious that gets products recalled. Using the term "illogical" is often considered dismissive. The overall tone of the first post comes across as a demand rather than a request because of various word choices. "The first set of issues I'd like cleared up," despite literally meaning "it would be positive for me if this happened," is generally language that's associated with making demands. I don't really know how to explain it more than that, though. A better way to present a request like this would be, "Hey, if it's not too much trouble, maybe we could get some clarification on X" or "It'd be really cool if the next supplement covers Y in more detail." You _did_ do a good job of this when you said "maps of each continent would be very useful," though.

                    Comment


                    • #11
                      Just to be clear, the standards I think you should be aiming for are:

                      1) Respect the difference between a game design choice you disagree with and an actual problem. Nations are not logical/rational actors. They are run by people who don't always do the "right" thing. Nor can we really say what would really happen in an alternate universe's future*. The history of Aeon is written as a game element to create a world that makes sense for the era Aeon takes place in. Fulfilling that goal by having a nation do something unexpected or seemingly out of character is not a problem, it's just a design choice. Likewise how much detail to put on a map is a design choice as you need to communicate important details without overloading the illustration.

                      2) Don't confuse "nice" language for non-insulting language. Being frank is fine, but if you really want the devs to pay this thread any mind? You have to pay attention to your language choices anyway. It's a lot easier to get feedback, discussion, and engagement with statements (however cliched or trite) in the form of, "I'm struggling with how to reconcile Game Element A with Game Element B, how do you do it? Is there an official statement on it?" than, "Game Element A is illogical." The second isn't going to bring attention to any issues you have, and is minorly insulting even without being a direct attack on anyone; it comes off as harping the devs and writer screwing up rather than looking towards solutions.

                      3) There's limitations to print media. Two page spread images are going to have a crease in them, and similar to #1 you just have to accept there's no perfect solution to that (aving the PDF helps though). There's also limitations on things like page count, the core Aeon book can't cover everything in complete detail. Yes, you're looking for a supplement of some sort, but that's still going to be limited in how much it can cover. The globe is a big place, no single text is ever going to do it justice.

                      4) Don't pull really weak rhetorical appeals when a thread isn't going your way.


                      * - As an exercise here, and as a way to consider framing future critiques in this thread, imagine going back to 1900, and trying to explain to someone how the world map would change into the present for us like it has, how the geopolitics have changed, and do so in a fashion that wouldn't come off as nonsensical.

                      Comment


                      • #12
                        You know, when I think about it? Try just going back to the late '90s when the Aeon Trinity setting was being developed and try to convince people of things that are true now. It'd sound ludicrous.

                        Comment


                        • #13
                          Originally posted by Zeea View Post
                          Well, I'm not sure where you're from, so I'll try to give a perspective from my own country. Using the term "defects" in American often implies something serious that gets products recalled. Using the term "illogical" is often considered dismissive. The overall tone of the first post comes across as a demand rather than a request because of various word choices. "The first set of issues I'd like cleared up," despite literally meaning "it would be positive for me if this happened," is generally language that's associated with making demands. I don't really know how to explain it more than that, though. A better way to present a request like this would be, "Hey, if it's not too much trouble, maybe we could get some clarification on X" or "It'd be really cool if the next supplement covers Y in more detail." You _did_ do a good job of this when you said "maps of each continent would be very useful," though.
                          I'm from the US. I'm very much on the left and I live in the southeast. Add to that the fact that I seem to read as gay (I'm Bi and fairly high in the Kensey numbers) which local reactionaries love to bring up in cheap insults So I've had to be on the defensive most of my 59 years

                          It may push me towards being blunt .

                          Comment


                          • #14
                            Some suggestions I'd like to make about the Aeon setting in North America.

                            1: It's a matter of taste but since they stressed the matter of agency when I got my Masters in History (Aspergers can play hob with spelling and writing style). It seems to me that there would be many groups outside of the Elites of the FSA that would favor the FSA. Examples would include the upperclasses of El Savador (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/El_Salvador) a group noted for brutal right-wing politics since the 18th century. The Native American tribes of eastern Nicaragua, who always fight with the central power of Nicaragua, and many other otherwise marginal groups. If the FSA plays divide and conquer, there would historically be many groups that would willingly play along.

                            2: This next one also comes from my history degree. The FSA is described as Fascist in the book, but the descriptions, while that of a right-wing authoritarian government, wasn't Fascist. Unless "Fascist" is used as a general pejorative, it has a clear meaning. The very fact that you've got a state that allows people to buy as many votes as they can afford and offers real due process to a portion of its citizens precludes the FSA being fascist. That Cassel can run his corporation as a separate power center within the FSA also precludes the FSA being Fascist. Could we call the FSA a plutocratic oligarchy (like present day Russia or China)? The term would be far more accurate.

                            I hope these two were politely stated. I'll move on to other continents next.

                            Comment


                            • #15
                              It's not a retraction, it's an apology. I got to see another copy of the Aeon book. The color printing on my map is defective. Everything else is okay though, I'm not asking for a replacement because that's the only flaw and it's so small. So sorry for saying the map colors weren't readable when it was only my copy. Forgive me.

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