Announcement

Collapse
No announcement yet.

The Limits of Flux

Collapse
X
  • Filter
  • Time
  • Show
Clear All
new posts

  • The Limits of Flux

    Conceptually what should be the limits of Flux? As we try to add other Flux users to Talents we come up with ideas like Wuxia martial arts and even Exalt style types.. Time Lords even Highlander style immortals.. but what should Flux ultimately be allowed to do and not do? Right now it nudges the universe in subtle ways and allows Mercer to Travel through time(and in previous editions to control its flow).

    I mean given direct conscious control of say Dramatic editing you'd have full on reality manipulators but... that seems to step heavily on the toes of Eximorph concepts...

  • #2
    I'd stop short of full-on reality manipulation. That said, stepping on toes shouldn't be as much of a concern. Except for specific effects like the Telepathy and Clairsentience Aptitudes, Novas can do anything Psions/Psiads can do. With Mega-Attributes, they can generally do it much better. Once Psions/Psaids reach Tier III, they can unleash some pretty terrifying effects even without Mega-Attributes. For now, look at the stuff Novas can already do and Psions/Psiads can potentially do at Psi 6+ then apply that to Talents.

    I suspect that we'll see Tier III Talents in Adventure once it's released.

    Comment


    • #3
      I think with Aberrants being able to very imperfectly and brutally imitate psionic modes in Aeon, it's reasonable that a really powerful and advanced flux user could step on the toes of the other two types as long as it fits with the general theme of enhancement through probability/reality/time/etc. I do think reality warping at the highest levels would make sense and wouldn't step on nova toes as long as it feels different. But I also get the impression that flux is harder to use than quantum or psi, so it makes since that talents will be a bit behind psions and novas on what they can at any given point of advancement.

      I'd generally say that flux effects should be less visually flashy than nova powers and less traditionally "psychic" than psionic powers, but I think a powerful flux user should be able to fake those with a little added sleight of hand and trickery, such as using flux to mess with existing energy sources to make them flare up dramatically. So, basically, less like Superman or Luke Skywalker and more like Harry Houdini.

      But I also think it's entirely plausible that a powerful flux user could summon energy from another universe or something like that. Basically, at sufficiently high power level, I think any source could do anything. In general play, though, I'd limit flux like I mentioned above.

      Comment


      • #4
        Originally posted by johntfs View Post
        I'd stop short of full-on reality manipulation. That said, stepping on toes shouldn't be as much of a concern. Except for specific effects like the Telepathy and Clairsentience Aptitudes, Novas can do anything Psions/Psiads can do.
        That's what I mean.. and we haven't seen the high end stuff Novas may no longer have any of the Time manipulation powers(having been pulled out for paramorphs only)


        I am ok with there being alot of crossover in the circles but Psions and psiads do look different than novas. So how do you make a "Paramorph God" look different than a nova?

        Comment


        • #5
          Originally posted by Lian View Post
          I am ok with there being alot of crossover in the circles but Psions and psiads do look different than novas. So how do you make a "Paramorph God" look different than a nova?
          I think the simplest way would be to play up the incredible luck and odd coincidences aspect instead of blatant displays of superhuman power. It'd probably be achieved via multiple levels of Enhancement at various tasks; and if they've got a sufficient level of Enhancement on a non-opposed task, they don't even need to try, they succeed via Storyteller fiat.

          For example: They need to break into a residential building with a doorman. They've easily got enough 'mojo' to do so, so the Storyteller lets them just walk in the front door while a resident walks out and the doorman is distracted by a bike messenger passing in the other direction. This sort of thing can happen to regular people, but happens to the Paramorph God multiple times every day.

          Done properly, the player should almost never have to actually roll for anything. Their actions are almost guaranteed to achieve at least a minimal degree of success, which actions taken against them either fail outright or only achieve the minimum possible level of success.

          Comment


          • #6
            The Paramorph God doesn't have anything that changes what he is; only what he does. Nothing about growing wings or being covered in scales, etc. Even powers associated with Intention (that is, the higher-power equivalent of Attribute-based Aptitude Gifts) don't really change the character's nature; they just enhance what the attributes let the character do. Though in the case of the Resistance Attributes, that can be a fine line.

            Every power a Paramorph can have should be rooted in Luck, Skill, or Intention: Luck expands to interacting with the Continuum, which includes forward, backward, and sideways in time. Skill involves training: Powers associated with skill involved taking what a skill can normally do to ridiculous levels. Intention involves drive and discipline. They are the most like the powers that a Superior would have, with the main difference being that the attribute in question still involves the character's drive backing it up.

            The ultra-Talent shouldn't have any powers (other than the Luck-based ones) that manipulate their environment; and the ones that they have that affect themselves should be rooted in enhancing what they do rather than what they are (with the aforementioned caveat about Resistance Attributes).
            Last edited by Dataweaver; 11-22-2019, 08:41 PM.


            Comment


            • #7
              I would also point to some of the early versions of Wonder Woman as an example of a third-tier Paramorph. As originally conceived, Diana was not a goddess or a demigoddess; she was an Amazon. And the Amazons were not inherently superhuman. Rather, they had access to super science and advanced one might even say superhuman training. Wonder Woman was able to pull off the remarkable feats that she managed because of that training, which was described as channeling mental energy through her body to enhance it.

              It's very reminiscent of stuff that we normally associate with the lights of crouching tiger Hidden dragon, but without the Eastern flavor. That's why I always point to exalted as an example of higher tier paramorphs, at least where skill is concerned. It draws from the same kinds of sources.

              That said, “chi bolts” like those featured in Street Fighter or manifesting weapons composed of EssenceFlux is probably a bridge too far — though in the latter case, I could see a luck based power that lets you summon the proper gear for the task at hand from an alternate reality.
              Last edited by Dataweaver; 11-22-2019, 09:13 PM.


              Comment


              • #8
                What would a Tier III Talent look like? Get Mage: The Awakening and look at the stuff you can do with Fate magic. Or just build them with any Sphere with the stipulation that they never suffer Paradox but cannot do any "vulgar" effect, only coincidental magic.

                And for more ideas, try to find/watch a series from the 90s called Strange Luck: https://www.imdb.com/title/tt0112182/?ref_=nm_knf_i3

                Comment


                • #9
                  Originally posted by johntfs View Post
                  What would a Tier III Talent look like? Get Mage: The Awakening and look at the stuff you can do with Fate magic. Or just build them with any Sphere with the stipulation that they never suffer Paradox but cannot do any "vulgar" effect, only coincidental magic.

                  And for more ideas, try to find/watch a series from the 90s called Strange Luck: https://www.imdb.com/title/tt0112182/?ref_=nm_knf_i3
                  If you want the Luck-based stuff to have a mystical flavor to it, then you could do worse than to base it on MtAw's Fate and Time Arcana; and I'd throw in a bit from Spirit, too, limited to “interacting with the Shadow” and reskinning "the Shadow” as “alternate timelines”.

                  Also: Vulgar vs. Coincidental is an Ascension thing, not an Awakening thing — at least, as of MtAw2e: you still get Paradox, but now it's cause by overreaching with your magic rather than by some sort of blatant vs. subtle divide.

                  Besides: higher-tier paramorphs don't necessarily have to have subtle effects. I can definitely see potential for higher-tier paramorphs to pull off flashy stunts that would flat-out break suspension of disbelief if an audience is expecting them to be baselines: Crouching Tiger, Hidden Dragon with its wirework should be a source of inspiration for Skill-based higher-tier Gifts.
                  Last edited by Dataweaver; 11-23-2019, 12:28 AM.


                  Comment


                  • #10
                    Originally posted by johntfs View Post
                    I suspect that we'll see Tier III Talents in Adventure once it's released.
                    I would recommend against holding your breath.


                    Ian A. A. Watson
                    Onyx Path Community Manager
                    Trinity Continuum Content Lead

                    Comment


                    • #11
                      Originally posted by IanWatson View Post

                      I would recommend against holding your breath.
                      Not really planning to. Even if such a things were going to happen... it would take a while. Right now Trinity Core exists as a physical book. As does Aeon. Unless somebody's printed it themselves, Aeon Expansion only exits as a digital file. Aberrant isn't even out the door yet and probably won't be for quite some time. And in the middle of all that somebody's wondering, "Hey, when will a product for this third game come to answer some fairly esoteric questions of Talents?" Figure don't hold your breath.

                      Comment


                      • #12
                        I think part of Ian's point is that the higher-tier stuff for Talents isn't going to be part of TC:A! at all: not the core book, not any of its supplements. If higher-tier stuff for paramorphs ever shows up in the Trinity Continuum official publications, it's going to be in some other setting than Adventure!.


                        Comment


                        • #13
                          Originally posted by Dataweaver View Post
                          I would also point to some of the early versions of Wonder Woman as an example of a third-tier Paramorph. As originally conceived, Diana was not a goddess or a demigoddess; she was an Amazon. And the Amazons were not inherently superhuman. Rather, they had access to super science and advanced one might even say superhuman training. Wonder Woman was able to pull off the remarkable feats that she managed because of that training, which was described as channeling mental energy through her body to enhance it.

                          It's very reminiscent of stuff that we normally associate with the lights of crouching tiger Hidden dragon, but without the Eastern flavor. That's why I always point to exalted as an example of higher tier paramorphs, at least where skill is concerned. It draws from the same kinds of sources.

                          That said, “chi bolts” like those featured in Street Fighter or manifesting weapons composed of EssenceFlux is probably a bridge too far — though in the latter case, I could see a luck based power that lets you summon the proper gear for the task at hand from an alternate reality.
                          The thing is some form of exalt covers able to do a whole bunch of things from punch people into Ducks to transform into cities. Even limiting to solars there's a point where they've moved beyond "merely" being good at something to forcing reality to bend to your will in certain defined ways.

                          Comment


                          • #14
                            Yes; but those “certain defined ways” are defined in terms of the skills. My point above about “chi bolts” and so on was that only a subset of Exalted's Charms are suitable inspiration for higher-tier Gifts: I could see higher-tier Aim Gifts emulating Solar Archery Charms such as Wise Arrow (the projectiles' paths bend through the air to bypass obstacles between the shooter and his target), Sight Without Eyes (you can accurately shot while literally blindfolded), Force Without Fire (the projectile you fire knocks the target down at the cost of inflicting less damage), Fiery Arrow Attack (the projectile acts as an incendiary round even if it isn't one), There Is No Wind (you get to ignore non-visual conditions such as wind and weather when shooting), and so on; but Phantom Arrow Technique is out, as are Immaculate Golden Bow, Rain of Feathered Death, Solar Spike, Heart-Eating Incineration, etc.

                            Basically, as a first draft I'd allow Aim to get everything that Solar Archery Charms permit (assuming they're suitable for the weapon being fired) except for the ones that let you manifest a weapon or projectiles out of nothing. Yes, some of the Charms that I'd allow amount to a limited sort of reality manipulation. That's fine, because of the limits; more on that below.

                            On the other hand, a number of the Archery Charms are tied to specific Exalted mechanics (such as the difference between a withering attack and a decisive attack) which may not have counterparts in the Storypath system. It can be hard at times; but I'd want to translate the underlying concept of a given Charm rather than the specific mechanics; and if this makes several different Charms translate into the same Gift or results in some Charms not translating at all, then so much the better: while I like the stuff in the Solar Charms in principle, I find the implementation to be overwrought and a bit too crunchy for my taste. I'd want the uber-Talent counterpart to be more streamlined and intuitive.

                            But getting back to my earlier point, note that while Exalted's Archery is about ranged attacks, there are no Charms for it that let you just look at the target and have him burst into flame. You must always wield a bow and use it to shoot an arrow: the Archery skill isn't merely a prerequisite that you must satisfy before you can acquire a given Charm; it's an integral part of the way that Charm works. In a similar way, Skill-based Gifts for all Paramorph tiers should not just require you to learn the appropriate Skills; their use should in some way be extensions of said Skills. Skill-based Gifts cannot duplicate Quantum Powers or Psi Modes that aren't extensions of Skill use; Attribute-based Gifts similarly need to be extensions of your Attributes (which is why I say that they'd be similar to the powers of Superiors). And Luck-based Gifts have to be explained in terms of manipulating time (albeit in the more versatile context of the Continuum, where access to alternate timelines definitely counts as manipulating time): you cannot use a Luck-based Gift to shoot fireballs out of your hands or to float in midair, since those have nothing to do with manipulating time.

                            And if you can't justify a given power as Luck-based, Skill-based, or Attribute-based, then a Talent can't have it, regardless of tier.

                            Put more prosaically, everything that a Talent can do ultimately comes down to fortune, training, or raw determination. In the latter two cases, Flux merely extends the scope of what would otherwise be possible — maybe in reality-bending ways; but always building on the foundations provided by the skills and attributes.


                            Comment


                            • #15
                              I think we have a hint of possible effects of a Higher Talent on the Inspiration description, it’s about Intention, Skill and Luck. When I first read it, I was expecting some Intention Gifts, but they never come...

                              Skill and Luck are prety straight forward, higher effects on skills, maybe higher scale on skill results (mega skill stile), extra dice, better use of momentum, better source of momentum, things like that. In a way it’s all about the Solar Charms.

                              Intention is a bit trickier, for a talent it’s about Destructive facet, but it can be more... magic-ish. Maybe flux manipulation (Kamehamehaaaaaaa), time manipulation (speed, time stop, etc), dimension jump (cross time travel, summoning creatures or energies from other dimensions), teleport (in the space-time idea), maybe other weird effects like precognition, and other things that can be explained as seeing thru time, conducting the events to the expected result, changing locally the flux of time, things like that...
                              Last edited by Mateus Luz; 11-23-2019, 06:57 AM.

                              Comment

                              Working...
                              X