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[Æon] Do you think Doyen reproduce?

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  • #31
    The whole Eden Nova and Earth Psion alliance is like the worst thing ever to the Doyen. Its like multiple nightmare piled on top of each other. Then you add in our potential for Talents too, as say a sort of middle ground, and the nightmare goes even greater.

    Oh, and let us not forget Psiads. Those noetic users are in my view less vulnerable then psions due to everything that they are being self-contained. I mean I imagine the work they did to make the QK proxy was stages more advanced then they had to do to make the other proxies, with them being latent and such. Said work would be lab activity and not field activity.

    But yeah, when a nova and a psion/psiad and a talent all work together I don't think anything is truly beyond humanity if given the chance and time.

    Which actually, come to think of it, would be a glorious setting. The eon when the three factors of human paranormal potential come together. So cool.

    Honestly, the Doyen seem to me as a major threat NOW but give humanity time to develop and there will be laughed at. Which is, of course, the point and also why the Doyen are doing everything they can short of destroying us outright to not give us the time to develop on our own.

    It kind of makes me want there to be a branch of Aeon Trinity that is all about Psiads rather than Psions. Like "we know Psiads come from humanity without anything causing them to manifest, which means they are safer for us" and such.

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    • #32
      Originally posted by Mateus Luz View Post

      They don’t, at least in the standard universe. They are afraid of anything getting as powerful as them, or able to damage them, so they attacked Crèche just to prevent their ascension, created a Noetic barrier around Earth after Hammersmith to prevent humans to evolve by force, installed blocks on Qin minds to make them incapable of evolving.

      If they do in your game it would mean they are picking individual creatures that would fit on their society and help the ascension. Probably too afraid of raising an entire species that may be able to dethrone them somehow.
      Well, the Doyen created the barrier more to not have quantum-enhanced humans than anything, since they hate and fear quantum manipulators.

      They could also limit the emerging races, so they do not get exactly there where the doyen are. So, the weaker doyen that players meet could be said to be mostly servitor races - the true doyen while powerful are way too cowardly and zealous of their immortality to get this close to the humans!

      Interestingly, in the opponents section in Aeon, there are listed several modes that can actually hurt a Doyen. So even the psions that were supposed to be engineered to not be as dangerous are actually pretty dangerous against them! If I was a member of a cowardly and manipulative race and wanted to create a weapon that could not bite me back, I would severely limit access to these modes.

      In my games, I actually put in psionics only the Fundamentals Mode can directly kill a doyen. Quantum powers still can, of course.

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      • #33
        Weapons are weapons. You can’t make a sword that can’t cut you as well, or a firearm that couldn’t be used to shoot you. Psions have several ways of harming the Doyen through their Aptitudes, which the Doyen are aware of and have chosen to go ahead anyway. The Doyens’ ‘safety catch’ is that the psions don’t know they exist. But if you play with fire you risk getting burned.

        Edit to add: Humans having the possibility of hurting a Doyen isn’t a problem. The challenge is how you force a plasma being to stay still long enough to kill it, when it’s likely to be able to teleport away and will do so at the first sign of significant risk to itself. And once you’ve attacked one, the others will soon know that humans are now a threat that needs asteroid bombardment to solve.

        Doyen aren’t of a single mind. As per TC: Aeon, they have factions and although the faction wanting to preserve and weaponise humanity won out for now, it won’t take much more than a human-caused Doyen death to sway more support towards eradicating the species and removing its Quantum (and now psi) threat.
        Last edited by Bunyip; 11-29-2020, 05:40 PM.


        Writer. Developer. World of Darkness | Chronicles of Darkness | The Trinity Continuum

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        • #34
          Originally posted by Bunyip View Post
          Weapons are weapons. You can’t make a sword that can’t cut you as well, or a firearm that couldn’t be used to shoot you. Psions have several ways of harming the Doyen through their Aptitudes, which the Doyen are aware of and have chosen to go ahead anyway. The Doyens’ ‘safety catch’ is that the psions don’t know they exist. But if you play with fire you risk getting burned.

          Edit to add: Humans having the possibility of hurting a Doyen isn’t a problem. The challenge is how you force a plasma being to stay still long enough to kill it, when it’s likely to be able to teleport away and will do so at the first sign of significant risk to itself. And once you’ve attacked one, the others will soon know that humans are now a threat that needs asteroid bombardment to solve.

          Doyen aren’t of a single mind. As per TC: Aeon, they have factions and although the faction wanting to preserve and weaponise humanity won out for now, it won’t take much more than a human-caused Doyen death to sway more support towards eradicating the species and removing its Quantum (and now psi) threat.
          We have only seen 2 uplifted species so far. It would be interesting to see how many other species the Doyen have manipulated into tools for their own benefit. I'm sure the gloves will come off when humanity discover the truth.

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          • #35
            Having a specific basic power in Teleportation is pretty necessary for keeping a Doyen around long enough to harm it. Electrokinesis can also stun it hard enough it can't function.

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            • #36
              Originally posted by Florin View Post
              Having a specific basic power in Teleportation is pretty necessary for keeping a Doyen around long enough to harm it. Electrokinesis can also stun it hard enough it can't function.

              Plenty of Quantum powers also can ruin their day, and we don't know the actual powerlevels of the Eden novas--they seem a bit too human to be at the upper end of the quantum spectrum, but even a Q5-7 nova can really, really, mess with the Doyen, both directly and via the results of mega-intelligent artifice.

              One question for a "future" war would be have the Eden novas figured out how to keep people from going nuts (the two cases of "bad" novas in their book seem more akin to just antisocial behavior than quantum fueled derangments), and if so, can they increase their numbers. A talent/psion/psiad/nova teamup is pretty much Doom for the Doyen.

              Heck, it might already be Doom--the Doyen have one big blind spot, which is a certain time-travelling Talent who can probably prepare humanity for any active attempts to hit the earth with world-killers.

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              • #37
                Originally posted by NewK View Post
                One question for a "future" war would be have the Eden novas figured out how to keep people from going nuts (the two cases of "bad" novas in their book seem more akin to just antisocial behavior than quantum fueled derangments), and if so, can they increase their numbers.
                Nippon was on the verge of sharing all their info on novas and Aberrants with the rest of the world when they discovered the Psi orders were secretly in contact with unknown alien resources. With the revelation of sane novas on Eden, they may release the info in response so the public has the hard data necessary to prove not all novas go insane. If they release their info, Aeon and Dr. Bhurano may make their decades of research public as well.

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                • #38
                  Originally posted by Florin View Post
                  Having a specific basic power in Teleportation is pretty necessary for keeping a Doyen around long enough to harm it. Electrokinesis can also stun it hard enough it can't function.

                  Depending on who shoots first, any mode that could wound could possibly kill a doyen. But even to block teleportation, you would have to get near one without triggering their psychognition. There is not a defined way for a clairvoyant to get a drop on another (so what I do when two precogs fight is letting two of them make a roll-off - which means a doyen would normally have an advantage).

                  There is the supposition that every doyen is perfectly fit for getting away, which can't be true. They don't have dots in all the modes, so they don't always get clairsentience, even teleportation. The ones that possess people have Possession, but that's basically it.

                  Also, how do the doyen even manage not to get noticed by clairsentients, telepaths, and anybody with the qk basic power (possession is an active power), is something that is not completely explained. It would be a good idea to have the backdoor make noticing the possession on a psion much harder, if not impossible.

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                  • #39
                    In the game I just wrapped up, the PCs faced Doyen a few times. The first time scared the crap out of them when they thought they'd killed the Doyen (because they didn't know this was a possession situation) and got a nasty surprise when the Doyen then possessed the BK combat monster. The second time, they managed to capture one by block its teleporting (having 2 PCs with at least 1 dot in Teleportation helped them a lot,) and then used EK to subdue it. The third time the Doyen was in a QK, and things went quite sideways for them. (And the universe at large, but that will be resolved in a later game.)

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                    • #40
                      Originally posted by pcontop View Post
                      Depending on who shoots first, any mode that could wound could possibly kill a doyen. But even to block teleportation, you would have to get near one without triggering their psychognition. There is not a defined way for a clairvoyant to get a drop on another (so what I do when two precogs fight is letting two of them make a roll-off - which means a doyen would normally have an advantage).
                      I think the only real noetic advantage humans have over the Doyen is that multiple psions combining their powers allows them to combine powers with a quantakinetic. Combining Psi Cloak with a power from another Aptitude sounds like a creative way to hide your actions from Doyen precognition, and the rules explicitly encourage such experimentation.
                      Originally posted by pcontop View Post
                      There is the supposition that every doyen is perfectly fit for getting away, which can't be true. They don't have dots in all the modes, so they don't always get clairsentience, even teleportation. The ones that possess people have Possession, but that's basically it.
                      OTOH it should generally be assumed that - if you're in a position to confront a Doyen - they've presumably arrived on your world via a combination of clairsentience and teleportation. Even if the Doyen adversary lacks clairsentience and had to be teleported to your world by their boss the first time, they still presumably have the ability to teleport home in an emergency. They'd have to be very busy with other stuff to leave someone totally underqualified to monitor a race as dangerous as humanity, and I find it hard to believe any Doyen who'd be trusted with such a job has spent the last million years bumming rides from their buddies because they never learned to teleport.
                      Originally posted by pcontop View Post
                      Also, how do the doyen even manage not to get noticed by clairsentients, telepaths, and anybody with the qk basic power (possession is an active power), is something that is not completely explained. It would be a good idea to have the backdoor make noticing the possession on a psion much harder, if not impossible.
                      The main reason would be that nobody but the proxies know to look for them, and most of the proxies thought of them as benefactors and allies. Beyond that, most Doyen infiltrators - assuming they were running more than the one who possessed Dr. Bhurano - likely have Sense Emotion active constantly, and so would know if someone became suspicious. A bit of Exacerbate or Rewrite later, and those suspicions instantly go away.

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                      • #41
                        Originally posted by Bunyip View Post
                        The challenge is how you force a plasma being to stay still long enough to kill it, when it’s likely to be able to teleport away and will do so at the first sign of significant risk to itself.
                        Psychbending and a few good psions of the right aptitudes assisting the process? Presumably they'd have considerable defenses, noetic and otherwise, against this sort of thing, but nothing's perfect.

                        "Hey, little guy- why don't you float on down and talk with us about your species for a few days?"

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                        • #42
                          Originally posted by Shepherdboi View Post
                          I think the only real noetic advantage humans have over the Doyen is that multiple psions combining their powers allows them to combine powers with a quantakinetic. Combining Psi Cloak with a power from another Aptitude sounds like a creative way to hide your actions from Doyen precognition, and the rules explicitly encourage such experimentation.
                          Yes, alternate powers and combinations seem to be needed for both psions and doyen.

                          Originally posted by Shepherdboi View Post
                          OTOH it should generally be assumed that - if you're in a position to confront a Doyen - they've presumably arrived on your world via a combination of clairsentience and teleportation. Even if the Doyen adversary lacks clairsentience and had to be teleported to your world by their boss the first time, they still presumably have the ability to teleport home in an emergency. They'd have to be very busy with other stuff to leave someone totally underqualified to monitor a race as dangerous as humanity, and I find it hard to believe any Doyen who'd be trusted with such a job has spent the last million years bumming rides from their buddies because they never learned to teleport.
                          Well, the faction that decided to take action on earth is a small one, and the doyen are pretty static, for all that was discussed here - so you have limited numbers. Limiting it even more to getting ones who had both a 5 dot telepathy mode and a 4 dot teleporting mode and an n-level clairvoyance mode might be a bit much.

                          The main reason would be that nobody but the proxies know to look for them, and most of the proxies thought of them as benefactors and allies. Beyond that, most Doyen infiltrators - assuming they were running more than the one who possessed Dr. Bhurano - likely have Sense Emotion active constantly, and so would know if someone became suspicious. A bit of Exacerbate or Rewrite later, and those suspicions instantly go away.
                          The basic range for the basic qk power is attunement, the range for sense emotion is much lower. There are a lot of psions, and rewriting their memories is pretty difficult and time-intensive, so it will not be the first choice. The first choice would be to not be noticed at all. The doyen need a way to cloak their psi powers in a more reliable way.

                          In my games, I just handwave it away, their active possession powers simply do not ping on the qk radar, and do not appear strange to telepathy while possessing someone. I have been using Storypath's Mind Over Matter, to both allow the players more variety in their powers, and for justifying to myself the capacities of the doyen.

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                          • #43
                            Originally posted by pcontop View Post
                            Well, the faction that decided to take action on earth is a small one, and the doyen are pretty static, for all that was discussed here - so you have limited numbers. Limiting it even more to getting ones who had both a 5 dot telepathy mode and a 4 dot teleporting mode and an n-level clairvoyance mode might be a bit much.
                            They don't actually need to be clairvoyant if they get someone else to teleport them to Earth the first time. Once they've been to Earth, they can leave and return whenever they like since Earth now counts as a familiar connection.

                            Originally posted by pcontop View Post
                            The basic range for the basic qk power is attunement, the range for sense emotion is much lower. There are a lot of psions, and rewriting their memories is pretty difficult and time-intensive, so it will not be the first choice. The first choice would be to not be noticed at all. The doyen need a way to cloak their psi powers in a more reliable way.

                            In my games, I just handwave it away, their active possession powers simply do not ping on the qk radar, and do not appear strange to telepathy while possessing someone. I have been using Storypath's Mind Over Matter, to both allow the players more variety in their powers, and for justifying to myself the capacities of the doyen.
                            You could rule that characters can spend extra successes from a power activation to increase the difficulty for others to detect the power. If this isn't the sort of option you think everyone should have, make an Edge that gives access to the option, and make membership in a secretive organization a prerequisite, much like the Enhanced Psi Cloak and Impersonation Training Edges.

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