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Aberrant: Defense and Quantum Deflection?

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  • econclark
    started a topic Aberrant: Defense and Quantum Deflection?

    Aberrant: Defense and Quantum Deflection?

    Hi All,

    Maybe I am missing something and perhaps you can help. In Aberrant, is there any real usefulness to Defense Mega-Edge or Quantum Deflection Power?

    Defense Mega-Edge adds quite a bit to (potentially) to your Defense (pool). This can be helpful, but seems like nothing compared to the Scale that would be applicable to even moderately high quantum powers. Probably, still useful against baselines though. I can see a high Quantum nova taking one dot of this, but that is the only real use that I am currently seeing.

    Quantum Deflection seems infinitely worse, costing two Quantum to add successes to the nova's Defense (once again no scale).

    Even a scale 2 attack has a good chance at overcoming these Defensive enhancements as far as I can tell, and that can be gained by the Heavy Weapon tag.

    I am almost 100% sure that I am missing something that could make either of these useful/relevant in the presence of scaled attacks. What is it, and how do you all deal with this?

    Thanks in advance!

  • Eternl Knight
    replied
    Originally posted by Timecrafter View Post
    That's great! Now we should ask how they recommend we deal with non-Personal powers; do they need an "Impose Non-Personal" tag or something? Or they should be "un-Imposable" for good? 🤔
    Originally posted by Bunyip View Post
    The answer is going to be ‘what works for your game?’
    To be fair, that's always the case. Rule Zero always applies. The question is about the default players can expect sitting down to play a game in the system. Some people play at (or run) multiple tables and it's always good to have a fair expectation of the default situation, on top of which notable exceptions are mentioned to players beforehand.

    Something I'm getting from these interactions (here & in the Ask a Dev thread) is that there is a bit of a clash of expectations regarding what we (as consumers/users) want/expect from the rules in terms of default framework and how much detail the authors (& developers) of said rules think should be set as a default. I think part of that comes from the fact that it's a first edition of the Aberrant rules in the Storypath system, some of it comes from unexpected interactions, and some of it is the grey area on the crunchy-to-narrative spectrum in which the Storypath system resides.

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  • Florin
    replied
    If I was building Gambit, I'd probably take a Restricted (-1) tag of needing a physical object, and then a Variable (3) tag to give it either Explosive (Planted) (2) or Thrown (1) + Charged (1). Or maybe Thrown (2) if you want the extra range and don't want to use Charged.
    Last edited by Florin; 01-20-2022, 03:02 PM.

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  • Timecrafter
    replied
    econclark, people here in this thread talked about Quantum Attack, to make Gambit-like explosives.

    besides that, Imposing in objects opens a lot of possibilities (that's why I created an Umbrella Power specifically to do that; ideally it'd be a tag, but for rules simplicity, it was easier to create an umbrela power similar to Elemental Mastery in order to account for the possible permutations). for example: if you use a small rock with Illusion, it's basically a "hologram generator rock". If you use Shroud in a pebble, it'd be a "darkness grenade". If you use a belt with cloak, it'd be a cloaking belt. if you use Quantum Agent in a bottle, it would be a "Genie Bottle". And so on...

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  • econclark
    replied
    Timecrafter if you want to take an item with you via teleport, it needs to be attuned. Impose would only teleport the object.

    Eternl Knight I do agree about the poking holes thing, not really my intention, but I do that sometimes. Was mostly trying to argue that a slightly more generic tag may be a good idea. I recognize that wind is a bit strange for Quantum Aura at first, but I would think of it as a retaliatory wind punch or something like that. If you are a Elemental focused nova, generally effecting wind, Quantum Aura is still a good option for both flavor and utility.

    Timecrafter do you have a specific non-personal power that you would like to impose? I am trying to think of one where Impose would be useful, but I am struggling.

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  • Bunyip
    replied
    The answer is going to be ‘what works for your game?’

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  • Timecrafter
    replied
    Originally posted by Eternl Knight View Post
    And we have an official answer from the Ask A Dev thread.​
    That's great! Now we should ask how they recommend we deal with non-Personal powers; do they need an "Impose Non-Personal" tag or something? Or they should be "un-Imposable" for good? 🤔

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  • Eternl Knight
    replied
    And we have an official answer from the Ask A Dev thread.
    Originally posted by Bunyip View Post
    Originally posted by Eternl Knight View Post
    Can Bestow/Impose be used to put the effects of a power onto objects and not just people?

    For example, is it possible to give Quantum Aura power the Impose power tag in order to make something (instead of just someone) dangerous to touch?
    Bestow requires the subject to be able to control the power, so I’d say no to that one (but only for that reason). Impose is under the control of the nova, so I don’t see any reason why not.

    Even if the ST decides that RAW dictates no to both, there’s no reason that a character couldn’t have the equivalent for inanimate objects only.

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  • Eternl Knight
    replied
    A thought that occurred to me that negates all of these attempts to game Quantum Aura... why not use Environmental Anima as the base power here? It creates an area of Environmental Damage of all types/flavours (with right power tags), you can increase the range at which you create it (&/or it's size) by investing in more dots / power tags, and because the size/area of it's affect is built into the dots/powers - there is little chance of Impose causing weird interactions.

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  • Eternl Knight
    replied
    Originally posted by Timecrafter View Post
    in vanilla, to Teleport Objects you use Attunement. That's why I think Impose wouldn't work on objects...
    Um, could I get a reference to what you mean by "vanilla"? If referring to the Teleport power in Aberrant rulebook, that has an Impose power tag that merely requires beating the Defence of a "target". Again, with what seems to be an assumption the target is a person and not an object but without spelling that out. Once again allowing a RAW interpretation that static objects regardless of Scale can be teleported at a touch (which I'd not allow without house-ruling at least one extra success needed per Scale over 1).

    To be frank, whilst I could as Devil's Advocate argue that the RAW for Impose are ambiguous enough to allow Imposing on objects, it's pretty clear given all the problems that causes once you scratch the surface, that the rules as intended clearly didn't take that possibility into account. I've never come across this (my players are storytellers, not min-maxers) but if it did come to my table, I'd be either requiring an extra dot of Impose for each level of Scale above 1 the player wishes to effect with their Imposed power or creating a new power tag better catered to the specific use the player is after. If it's a one off, in comes the power stunt.
    Last edited by Eternl Knight; 01-19-2022, 08:42 PM.

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  • Dataweaver
    replied
    Originally posted by Eternl Knight View Post
    I mean, at some point you're looking for holes in the rules rather than using the rules to get the effect you want.
    Upvoted for this. If you look for holes, you'll find them, no matter what system you're dealing with.

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  • Eternl Knight
    replied
    Originally posted by econclark View Post
    Yes, but fire actually spreads and keeps burning given fuel and oxygen etc. I can easily see the argument for an Acid related attack, but what about an electrical attack, and how about a straight wind attack. It is hard to justify that it lingers and continues to electrify (or wind?) a subject. I agree that it should work the same, but if you take away that bit of flavor some are hard to explain.

    Also, Incendiary explicitly can ignite flammable materials, again, this is easy for Acid, but can get tricky for some others.
    To be fair, the "wind attack" isn't a great example of Quantum Aura either. How do you explain that you need to touch an object for the wind to hurt you? Electricity actually makes a bit of sense. Firstly, sparks / heat from high voltage can ignite fires and if you don't want that - it spreads through conductive materials (instead of igniting flammable ones). After all, an electricity flavoured Quantum Aura won't (without power stunts) spread beyond the object it's on, even if it's sitting in a pool of water or touching metal bars (otherwise immune to it's "damage" being without Injury Conditions to lose).

    I mean, at some point you're looking for holes in the rules rather than using the rules to get the effect you want. Storypath is less about min-maxing the mechanics in the rule book and more about coming up with a concept and finding the rules/powers to best represent them. It's not MEANT to be as crunchy or gamey as, say, the Hero system. There are going to be mechanical holes that, yes, by the rulebook you can cheese into play... but does it represent something that makes sense in the world of the character.

    Let's take, for example, the fact that due to Quantum Aura & Impose being an untested/unintentional combination there is nothing to stop you saying "I use Impose to put a Quantum Aura onto the entire Chrysler Building". Rules as written, if one takes the assumption Impose is not limited to people, that works because RAW there is no Scale limit on what you can Impose a power onto so even a Quantum 1 nova can make the entire building a damaging object to touch. The Hero System, being crunchier, explicitly makes the area a power can affect a part of the power's cost. A good Storyguide is going to say "No" to Q1 novas turning skyscrapers into weapons of war and "Sure" to the Incendiary tag not being specifically fire-based, because the former is RAW OK but pure min-max cheese whereas the latter is a RAW greyzone but makes sense without game balance issues.

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  • Timecrafter
    replied
    in vanilla, to Teleport Objects you use Attunement. That's why I think Impose wouldn't work on objects...

    Also, notice that both Bestow and Impose only apply to Personal range powers. You can't Bestow or Impose any power with Close/Short/Medium etc. range (such as Quantum Attack and a lot of other powers), even if you are trying to Impose or Bestow them to people.

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  • econclark
    replied
    Yes, but fire actually spreads and keeps burning given fuel and oxygen etc. I can easily see the argument for an Acid related attack, but what about an electrical attack, and how about a straight wind attack. It is hard to justify that it lingers and continues to electrify (or wind?) a subject. I agree that it should work the same, but if you take away that bit of flavor some are hard to explain.

    Also, Incendiary explicitly can ignite flammable materials, again, this is easy for Acid, but can get tricky for some others.

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  • Eternl Knight
    replied
    Originally posted by econclark View Post
    Having a power with the Incendiary tag could do something similar definitely (however, that is more or less limited to fire).
    I think this is, again, where the whole "powers are effects you flavour with your own narrative" part of Aberrant comes in.

    Whilst it's description is definitely that of a fire hazard, mechanically a fire hazard and environmental damage from such is no different than any other hazard of the same Damage Rating. It's defended by having the right Environmental tag on your Armour, it inflicts Injury Conditions the same way which are resisted with the same rolls, etc. Whether it is actual fire or merely acts the same way - the mechanics will be the same so I'd allow it. I even have a hard time calling it a "house rule" when the only thing that's different is how you describe it narratively.

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