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  • The Cardinal
    started a topic System

    System

    will all new SL publications use Pathfinder - or maybe another system (D&D5? Storyteller Fantasy?) as well??

  • Drake
    replied
    To toss in my opinion, I'm running 5th edition so it would be great to see products built for that game... but I'm not conversion-shy, so products made for Pathfinder or any other similar game are basically just as appealing to me even though I don't run those games.

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  • Caliburn101
    replied
    I introduced my group to Scarred Lands in the early days of the Ghelspad book. We were playing 3.0-3.5 back then and getting used to the increased crunch and the sizeable increase in survivability built into those editions compared to 1st and 2nd Edition. I have always thought that this campaign world was the best ever released by a publisher, my players almost all of them, agreed.

    But there was always the issue of the world being very harsh and difficult to survive in in principle, and the power levels of 3.5 working against this. Pathfinder made this worse, and whilst it is the better iteration of 3.5, it is now a cookie-cutters paradise which punishes non-min-maxing play. The one thing that favours Pathfinder is the backwards compatibility levels allowing relative ease of conversion. In my opinion however, this is nor enough to make Pathfinder and it's significant in-built power-creep the best system, merely the easiest. I understand the weight behind the calls for it being Pathfinder first, but like World of Warcraft, it's not because PF is the best thing around anymore, it's simply the number of people invested in it playing out.

    Personally, RuneQuest 6 would be the best fit for the grittiness of the game world, but the conversion work would be immense, and as Design mechanism lose the license next year, a non-starter anyway. Savage Worlds would be a decent fit for the tone of the gameworld, but again, a lot of work involved in it's conversion. 13th Age would work fine, but the limitations of the system would mean the significant variance in character design and concept inherent to the many choices in Scarred Lands would make this a big job of conversion too.

    Considering all the different factors, 5th Edition hits the balance point between these the best.

    It does gritty and threatening to high levels well - the wonderful depth and breadth of the dangerous world of Scarn wouldn't melt into the irrelevant background as the GM was forced to run the party around in their increasingly ridiculous and stratospheric 'CR bubble' that you are forced to do with 3.5 and Pathfinder; Spider Eye Goblins could take out a party of 1st levels, and threaten in far greater numbers a high level party - no need to always roll out some world-shaking BBEG every time the heroes step out of the gates of Mithral or Hollowfaust. On the compatibility side, the subclass system and newly introduced Prestige Class compatibility would make conversion easier than a non-d20 system.

    5th Edition Scarred Lands will have me empty my wallet without hesitation. I certainly hope these is a variant that caters in full to this best-match combination.
    Last edited by Caliburn101; 12-07-2015, 05:42 AM.

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  • Malckuss
    replied
    I don't suppose we could get some rules for using SL with Onyx Path's other games, sort of like the books of mirrors (IIRC)? I would love an alternate setting to drop Changeling, Beast,(any cWoD or nWod game, really) Scion, Exalted, or Trinity Continuum game in. Even if they were just aids for some handwavium would be nice.

    Leave a comment:


  • Typath
    replied
    If it was up to me I would go with 5e. Don't get me wrong we played and loved pathfinder for years, dnd 4e just never did it for us. The new 5e plays perfect for our style of play.

    Leave a comment:


  • Dataweaver
    replied
    I don't really have a dog in this fight as I'm not much of a d20 fan — the only d20 game I have enjoyed was Mutants and Masterminds, which was only nominally d20 to begin with and has subsequently moved away from even that much of a connection — but here are my thoughts anyway:

    I think OPP should focus exclusively on Pathfinder. Others have pointed out the reasons why OPP should start there; let me submit that they shouldn't go any further because the company isn't known for its system work so much as it's known for its setting work: when they have done successful system design, it has always been with a system that's tailor-made to a particular setting.

    As well, the ports that most people have been requesting have been other versions of d20; if the d20 community is as vibrant as I think it is, I'm betting that guidelines for “how to port from Pathfinder to X” have already been written and distributed. Unless they decide to devise a custom version of d20 that's tailored specifically to the Scarred Lands, they should stick to what they're really good at: developing compelling settings.

    Leave a comment:


  • Baaldam
    replied
    Not quite related, but of late i've been mighty tempted to just go back to Mirrors and some other nWoD stuff as the basis for the next time i ST a Scarred Lands game...

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  • trechriron
    replied
    I think it would be superb to see a Storytelling version. I would likely take any published material and convert to something anyways, so as long as all the stuff is in there, I'll happily pick it up just for the amazing setting.

    Leave a comment:


  • Enthusiastic Grog
    replied
    I'd prefer Pathfinder, simply for the backwards compatibility with the preexisting 3.5 SL material, the large PF fan base, and the excellent Pathfinder support. Sure, we'd all love for their to be a Scarred Lands port to our own favorite system, but Pathfinder at this time makes the most sense, since Scarred Lands was White Wolf''s 3.5 setting, and Pathfinder is the inheritor of the 3.5 legacy, For better or for worse, Scarn is a Dungeons and Dragons 3.5 world. Also, Pathfinder represents the best compromise - the preexising Scarred Lands fan base can move into Pathfinder with no trouble, and new SL players can move from the large Pathfinder community into Scarred Lands with absolutely no trouble at all. Further, all the prior development work that went into Scarred Lands won't be wasted - the spells, items, feats and prestige classes from Scarred Lands will relatively easy to balance pass and convert into PF, much easier to convert than to do so, say, for D&D 5E.

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  • haaz
    replied
    I've not got all of the books, so I'm still working out what books are the most important ones for me to buy. I'm not sure I'll bother with the 4e book, as I think it is just a duplication of 3e monsters.
    It is. The only real new thing in there is new illustrations, and they are not that great...

    Although I didn't play 4e, I think it is a shame that 4e Scarred Lands consisted of just one monster book and pretty much no setting support.
    I think there was a Relics & Rituals programmed, but they cancelled it for lack of budget...

    One reason why I prefer to stick with a system that is as close to 3rd Edition as possible (and Pathfinder RPG is closest) is that a lot of the more crunchy products (including some that launched the Scarred Lands product line) were based specifically on building 3e compatible content. So things like Feats and Prestige Classes were hard-coded into Scarred Lands from the start.
    Yes they are hard-coded, and looking back, it is actually what one of the reasons that makes the charm of the Scarred Lands, providing a setting-based explanation on why divine and primal magic are different ^^ I the home-made ruleset I am using, I had to keep the classes/prestige classes structure to provide the feeling of the setting (even if at some point I hesitated to throw that away).

    But looking at what happened when Sword & Sorcery Studio moved from Warcraft: The RPG to World of Warcraft: The RPG, there was several books that duplicated earlier books.
    I agree, I don't want to see that either, and I think that would divide the audience. If systems are close enough (like different versions of the d20 system, and I believe D&D 5 is a close-enough version of the d20 system, from what I have seen of it [I may be wrong]), conversions can be made as an appendix as what Monte Cook did for his Book of Eldricht Might series (written for standard d20 but the appendix provided conversion for his own Unearthed Arcana d20 variant), or as you suggested, a web enhancement ^^

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  • Big Mac
    replied
    Originally posted by KPLangers View Post
    I think you've covered the pertinent points nicely there David, and I think WotC's hesitancy over any kind of OGL for 5e will play a large part in any decision.

    The OGL for 3.x allowed for a lot of creativity amongst 3rd party publishers, though granted not all of it good. The 4e GSL was excellent at stifling any attempt to publish anything related to the system. I'll certainly be interested to see what, if anything, WotC offer for 5e licensing.
    If you look at Paizo (and I think everyone agrees that they are the most successful of the 3rd Party Publisher companies publishing OGL material for 3rd Edition D&D) they carried on, when others gave up on 3rd Edition.

    Originally posted by KPLangers View Post
    You're right, of course, in that the important undertaking here is to nurture Scarred Lands, and to bring it back to the forefront of campaign worlds. I'm proud to say that I still own a print copy of everything ever produced for the setting, and that I still regularly run campaigns there; so I'm keen to see some updated material and new fiction regardless.

    A Scarred Lands PH & DMG would certainly present interesting opportunities. There is also the opportunity to present alternate system specific rules and creations at the Piazza of course
    I've not got all of the books, so I'm still working out what books are the most important ones for me to buy. I'm not sure I'll bother with the 4e book, as I think it is just a duplication of 3e monsters.

    Originally posted by haaz View Post
    Well, I still believe there are a few things that can be system-free. The two Gazeeters are (except for the descriptions of the races for Termana), the Campaign Settings almost are (except for few feats/prestige classes at the end), and there is the precedent of the Grand History of the Realm, published by WotC between D&D3.X and D&D 4. My question was "are we going to see books like that" and not "can you remove all system parts in all books you are going to publish" ^^'
    Great point.

    Strange Lands: Lost Tribes of the Scarred Lands was a bit like three books for Asherak, Fenrilik and the Dragon Lands that were bundled together, to get them published before the product line ended. So I'm sure that more could be done with those three continents (even if it was not systemless books).

    And I would love to see a Grand History of Scarn get published. That's a brilliant idea. They should totally do that.

    Originally posted by haaz View Post
    Of course I agree there is a need for a system, and PathFinder is the most reasonable choice, there is no use arguing over that (even though I like your thoughts Big Mac over the different licenses that exist. Web Enhancements are a nice idea, actually). And my dislike for d20-based system does not surpass my love for the setting, and I am probably going to buy every book there is on the Scarred Lands anyway (heck, I even have that D&D 4 Creature Collection) :
    One reason why I prefer to stick with a system that is as close to 3rd Edition as possible (and Pathfinder RPG is closest) is that a lot of the more crunchy products (including some that launched the Scarred Lands product line) were based specifically on building 3e compatible content. So things like Feats and Prestige Classes were hard-coded into Scarred Lands from the start.

    I do strongly believe that any campaign setting can be run under any ruleset, so I believe that Savage Worlds support (or support for anything else) is possible. (They could move to 100 percent Savage Worlds and do a good job.) But looking at what happened when Sword & Sorcery Studio moved from Warcraft: The RPG to World of Warcraft: The RPG, there was several books that duplicated earlier books.

    Maybe I'm selfish, but I would like to see new Scarred Lands products as soon as possible, rather than wait for 2 or 3 Savage Worlds or 5e D&D books to rebuild the core of Scarred Lands.

    This goes both ways too. Although I didn't play 4e, I think it is a shame that 4e Scarred Lands consisted of just one monster book and pretty much no setting support. If they are going to do Savage Worlds or 5e, I think the fans would hope that Onyx Path had the time to focus on it enough to do the job properly.

    Leave a comment:


  • haaz
    replied
    Well, I still believe there are a few things that can be system-free. The two Gazeeters are (except for the descriptions of the races for Termana), the Campaign Settings almost are (except for few feats/prestige classes at the end), and there is the precedent of the Grand History of the Realm, published by WotC between D&D3.X and D&D 4. My question was "are we going to see books like that" and not "can you remove all system parts in all books you are going to publish" ^^' Of course I agree there is a need for a system, and PathFinder is the most reasonable choice, there is no use arguing over that (even though I like your thoughts Big Mac over the different licenses that exist. Web Enhancements are a nice idea, actually). And my dislike for d20-based system does not surpass my love for the setting, and I am probably going to buy every book there is on the Scarred Lands anyway (heck, I even have that D&D 4 Creature Collection)

    To conclude

    There is also the opportunity to present alternate system specific rules and creations at the Piazza of course
    That is what I did indeed

    Leave a comment:


  • KPLangers
    replied
    I think you've covered the pertinent points nicely there David, and I think WotC's hesitancy over any kind of OGL for 5e will play a large part in any decision.

    The OGL for 3.x allowed for a lot of creativity amongst 3rd party publishers, though granted not all of it good. The 4e GSL was excellent at stifling any attempt to publish anything related to the system. I'll certainly be interested to see what, if anything, WotC offer for 5e licensing.

    You're right, of course, in that the important undertaking here is to nurture Scarred Lands, and to bring it back to the forefront of campaign worlds. I'm proud to say that I still own a print copy of everything ever produced for the setting, and that I still regularly run campaigns there; so I'm keen to see some updated material and new fiction regardless.

    A Scarred Lands PH & DMG would certainly present interesting opportunities. There is also the opportunity to present alternate system specific rules and creations at the Piazza of course

    Leave a comment:


  • Big Mac
    replied
    Originally posted by KPLangers View Post
    The problem with system-free material is exactly that; it lacks a system.You create a whole lot of work for anyone that would like to use the setting.The original Scarred Lands material was created using D&D 3.x, so it makes sense to update it all to Pathfinder. Any kickstarter for this material could definitely include other systems as a stretch goal though, assuming that kickstarter will be the platform used to fund a deluxe edition of course I'll be happy to be exploring Scarn again soon regardless!
    Pathfinder RPG sounds fairly logical to me...at least from the point of view of a Scarred Lands Kickstarter.

    But, with Scarred Lands being one of the first (if not the actual first) 3rd Party Publisher campaign setting to be compatible with D&D, during the 3rd Edition Era, I think that there may be some D&D fans who have migrated to 4e and 5e (rather than Pathfinder) who might be interested in a new 5e Scarred Lands Campaign Setting product line. I don't know what WotC are planning to do to replace the d20 System Trademark Licence (d20STL) and it may be that WotC take too long and Onyx Path have to go with Pathfinder RPG, because that is the only logical option that is open at the time they need to start publishing. I'm not going to buy the 5e books, but it would be crazy for them not to give that option a lot of consideration...and maybe actually choose 5e D&D over Pathfinder RPG if they get a better deal.

    One way to do system neutral products would be to have a series of Web Enhancements that provide rules for Pathfinder RPG, D&D 5th Edition, etc.

    There must be some things that would have a high percentage of non-crunchy content anyway. They would be the easiest things to make system neutral. If there was a Scarred Lands Atlas added to a potential Kickstarter (and I'd love to see Anna Meyer hired to do this, as she makes awesome maps using 3D models) I doubt that it would need to have any game stats.

    There is also the duel-stats option. The 3e Oriental Adventures products also had Lot5R stats, but I'm not sure that the OGL allows that (it blocks publishing under another licence) so unless WotC released a new OGL that allowed 5e compatible products to be published with other Open Game Content, that could be problematic. (However, duel-stat books for two different OGL rules systems would probably be OK.)

    I think it could actually be nice if 3.5 D&D versions were considered too. I am still using 3.5, and if a new set of Scarred Lands books comes out, I'll be wanting to retro convert things back to 3e rules. Web Enhancements that retro-convert new products would be very useful for anyone else using the existing Scarred Lands products with the original rules.

    The SRD is available under the Open Game Licence and it would be technically possible for Onxy Path to publish a Scarred Lands Players Handbook (to replace WotC's ) and a Scarred Lands Gamemaster's Book that dovetailed with the original Creature Collection books to create a complete 3.5 system.

    Sword & Sorcery Studios did do a bespoke d20 System ruleset for World of Warcraft: The Roleplaying Game but I think that sort of thing reduces the playerbase somewhat (especially as they didn't publish an online SRD for that game, like Paizo did with Pathfinder RPG). So I would rather see Scarred Lands stick with 3.5 or change to Pathfinder RPG than move to a bespoke OGL ruleset based on the SRD.

    One thing that we fans need to bear in mind is that, every option that we fans might be interested in has costs associated with it, as well as income. Supporting two rulesets might bring in more cash, but it might also eat up more money in R&D. They need to make enough money to keep the product line going. I would prefer to not see Scarred Lands go back out of print again, if it is possible for them to make it last indefinitely. More Scarred Lands products in one ruleset is preferable to me than a few products in multiple rulesets. I want to see more of Scarn, not lots of rules.

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  • KPLangers
    replied
    The problem with system-free material is exactly that; it lacks a system.You create a whole lot of work for anyone that would like to use the setting.The original Scarred Lands material was created using D&D 3.x, so it makes sense to update it all to Pathfinder. Any kickstarter for this material could definitely include other systems as a stretch goal though, assuming that kickstarter will be the platform used to fund a deluxe edition of course I'll be happy to be exploring Scarn again soon regardless!

    Leave a comment:

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