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  • [QUOTE=Heavy Arms;n1173575]

    Well, the legacy of that is actually the "tradition standard" foci where it was assumed that members of a Tradition could use foci that make sense to their Tradition for zero bonus, while personal and unique foci that provided mechanical benefits were added to this.

    In other words, M20 didn't do this. 2e did this and Rev went farther, by putting personal foci over the foci learned by being part of a Tradition.



    So zero "hard crunchy style" stuff. Just lore descriptions we were expected to enact...
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  • First edition Mage: The description of Focus where it was tied to a specific material object per Sphere for each Tradition. The legacy of which is things like "personalized focus/instrument"
    Second and Revised: Written in throughout whenever the way in which a specific Sect does magic "their" was as opposed to the way other Sects do theirs. This was a particular concern of the Tradition books (to no small degree the first edition books, but expanded heavily and effectively the focus of an entire chapter with mentions and nods throughout the books).
    Dark Ages...
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  • Yeah. Celts do the Verbenae thing. Not the Karma thing. There isn't any more of an easy translation of that concept into what we know of druidic mysticism than there is into modern Western ideas. It is NOT equivalent to geasa. That is a not really an oversimplification, it's a complete misunderstanding of what geasa are and how they worked. So, by practice, they should be back in the Verbena, not withstanding any mental gymnastics to the contrary. Transmigration of souls found in Irish myths and legends isn't even close to being like the cycle of reincarnation. It's just not.
    ...
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  • How are they separated exactly? I don't see any evidence of any of this except for the ligthest of glosses. There are those bits in the Sect descriptions about the Foci of the members, but they are are barely even suggestions, as they go from one or so "main ideas" to exploding outwards into appreciably more than half the list of possible Practices. What I'm looking for is something in, say, the section on Focus where it explicitly goes into how SECT not the mage's personal beliefs, but those aspects of those beliefs that are shared with the member of their Sect in such a way that...
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  • The fact that these are characeters that are supposed to show how the Focus system works and that you are having to make guesses about what Tradition they belong to pretty much locks down my point. If Focus and Sect ere related in anything other than the most tenuous way, then mentioning what Sect such a character belonged to would be front and center, including if they are (or even were) an Orphan. The fact that their Sect is so utterly irrelevant it is actually NEVER mentioned in describing their methodology and philosophy and practice of magic is a decisive indicator of what I've been pointing...
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  • My feelings are this are informed by going to look at the mages in the Book of Secrets examples of developed Foci. Read those and and come back and say that they haven't taken those pools of color that were the ideas of Practice and social identity as a Sect and just gone finger-paintining with them. If THOSE are typical mages, then a Sect is just a political affiliation. If that.

    I've seen Brucato say that he feels the game should really be about Orphans and very individualized perceptions of magic and that all the politics of the setting really got in the way of the core...
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  • That's where we're going to part ways. I don't accept the Aided as part of the WoD as is BECAUSE they are just an attempt to shoehorn in a Celtic Euthanatos and there is nothing about it that makes sense other than just that. I would buy it with a SIMPLE fix. A bit of fluff that talks about why the 100% core Verbena Aided aren't welcome in the Verbena. I mean, the VALDERMEN, who are much more Euthanatos-like and the Bjornaer who have been in bed with the intolerant Diedne-killing Hermetics are WARMLY welcomed into the Verbena. But as is. NOPE. There is nothing to the idea that the Verbena...
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  • And, yet, the smallest Legion, barring Fate? The Paupers are the place where the "questionable" factors go. It's where all the "Other" and "More than one of the above" are supposed to go. Even with skimming, it didn't get them all that much because, apparently, the Deathmarks are decisive enough that they are harder to scam than, say, cattle brands.

    And those arguments don't actually mean the Deathmarks aren't determinative. It means that they aren't being paid attention to for reasons of political or economic gain. And I'm pretty sure that a lot...
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  • Then what is your actual objective?

    It doesn't seem like analysis of the information of a very small and non-representative sample of a very nebulous and undefined population is going to produce many useful broad-based or applicable information. It's like doing a granular analysis of a Who's Who in "X" (this city or that profession or that subset of the population determined by some specific criteria) and trying to extrapolate not just information about "X" but about the whole society. Further undermined by having no actual knowledge of the construction of...
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  • Ajax
    replied to Matter question
    Which is really great for the loud and in your face players and will drive away people who don't want to compete. And is fine for the people who are fast thinkers and great bullshit artists, but sucks for people who are more thoughtful and those who want to work from first principles in a straightforward fashion instead of getting by on being persuasive.

    See... that's what rules are FOR. They set up an even table for everyone. Otherwise the game can be, no WILL be, the people who can shout their way to the top of the pile and the people who are okay with them doing that. With...
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  • The Cycle of Reincarnation is really much less of a part of Celtic mysticism than it really was insofar as we can determine, based on what legends and myths we have, based on what non-Celtic people thought about them, what 19th Century dudes in Britain who wanted to play dress up and modern iterations of paganism . It's more than a little amusing that the reason that "druids" get shoved into the Euthanatos is really more about the fact that D&D said druids have the reincarnation spell in place of raise dead. In any case, the take on the Cycle that is attributed to the Verbena is...
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    Last edited by Ajax; 12-31-2017, 02:26 PM.

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  • Still and all, there are problems with basing your sample on just the wraiths presented. It's like trying to base your demographics on only the people who appear in histories. If, somewhere, where there was a source where the number of wraiths for a necropolis was explicitly stated vs. the number of wraiths specifically described, there might be some traction there, but it's offset by the fact that "currently important personages" are pretty much NEVER representative of the population as a whole.

    And, again, the causes of death aren't set by the Hierarchy's Legions,...
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  • I agree with both Dataweaver and Heavy Arms. As written and conceptualized in structure and philosophy, the current version of the VA and Etherites would take something pretty damn significant to integrate. They're not coming at the same thing from different directions, they're going for different things at angles that aren't even in the same frame of reference. Coming up with something that currently or in the recent past would have brought them together.... that would be something BIG and, almost certainly with lots of repurcussions that would echo out into the Mage world. So, having the...
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  • I agree with your main point, but, really, the Aided would work just fine in the Verbena and probably much better. In fact, there isn't much about their effective defection to the Euthantoi that makes much sense. Persecuted by the Christians? How does that drive a bunch of druid sacrificers to ignore their friends and close neighbors who are going to be the core of the Verbena, who are also being so persecuted and seek commonality with a group whose ideologically closest sub-sets is remnant Graeco-Roman Mystery Cultists with the rest coming from ideological orientations that aren't even vaguely...
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  • Ajax
    replied to Rote Crunch
    I've done some dabbling of having Sorcerers be Arete 0 mages who can only do magic by buying Rotes. Though it took some serious caveats and homebrew rules to flesh it out. (E.g. Rotes cost XP. Buying them progressively. How that intersects with buying Spheres. Etc.)...
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  • Ajax
    replied to Rote Crunch
    Even if the basic premise of "Rotes are just plain BETTER the all other magic" (arguable and the weight of what rules there are bend away from that), we need a LOT more guidance than we get.

    How do you learn that Rote? Does it cost XP? Can a PC come up with such a Rote? Is there an benefit to being a Rote-heavy caster that can be offset by something else that a Rote-FREE caster gets? (Like, say, your Hermetic is weighed down with a shit ton of these Super-Effect Rotes, what about the Ecstatic that pretty much ALWAYS makes up every effect on the spot entirely dependent...
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  • Ajax
    replied to Matter question
    My standard House Rules document for a Mage game runs several pages even if we are trying to hew as close as possible to M20 RAW. Just to define which Purple Boxes we're using and so on. Usually it's substantially longer depending on what the game in question is going to be about. For our next game, an Initiates game as Awakened Orphans without any Sectarian meddling, it's STILL going to be long even with trimming off huge chunks of the game fluff and crunch, just to get the Purple Boxes down + the new House Rules requires to handle how Initiates and M20 are going to work....
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  • Nice graph. Where do those numbers come from? Hells, where do those categories come from and why them? If it's self-generated, why don't the categories match those of the Deathmarks/Legions? How does that even bear out?

    There are a LOT of ground rules that need to be laid out before these become workable. And some of them are going to be very hard to deduce, like the number of dead people that end up in the Shadowlands at all vs. just "poofing" to unknowable destinations. Then the % of the remaining that become Specters immediately (which can vary based on the...
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  • Ajax
    replied to Rote Crunch
    Then we needs rules about this. Why it is so. How it is so. How ST should make up Rotes. What kinds of Rotes NPCs should have. How do PCs come by Rotes (several systems, probably.... though repetition of effect, though study of whatever Rote bank is appropriate to their Sect/Paradigm, etc.)

    And, even then, maybe it's a good idea not to have a rule that says "Here is way to break the rules of the game and make things that are impossible." Any PC mage worth their salt is going to be pissed that someone can do something with a Rote that they can't do even if they have...
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  • Ajax
    replied to Rote Crunch
    Agreed. If M20 could devote the space it did to Martial Arts maneuvers and Do, it could definitely have devoted some times to an actual game/crunch, non-ad hoc system for Rotes (which, beyond the ill defined -1 Diff is pretty much what is in the game and what everyone is describing that they use). Which is kinda sorta what all the Do crap looked like, with eyes scrunched up tight. As in, "Why do we get a Rote-like system for one thing that one Sect kinda sorta specializes in..." And, if not there, then in BoS or HDYDT, both of which spends scads of words on things that matter tons...
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Ajax
Ajax
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Last Activity: 01-07-2018, 12:20 PM
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