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  • Pleiades
    replied to [V5] Montreal
    except the Demon's motivations are unrelated to the conflict with infernalists,
    it's explicitly stated that sabbat are ok with demons and that some of them are willing to ally with them,
    infernalists, however, are not appreciated even by those who ally with demons, and that's regardless of the infernalist's master's motivations

    again, there's a difference between sharing a demon's motivations and selling out to that same demon,
    Infernalists are the latter (or both)
    anti-infernalists can be the former, but never the latter



    all of these...
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  • Pleiades
    replied to [V5] Montreal
    I know this is a strawman but, forget about Caine and noddists for a second, by your logic there is no difference between:

    - a lasombra on the path of night who worships satan, tries impersonating Satan's ideals, and works to break the celestial shackles and bring chaos to the world

    and

    - an infernalist on the path of screams (or whatever it's called) who worships satan, who has sold their blood for at least three investments with him, have replaced their beast with a hellbeast remotely controlled by their master, and their soul held hostage

    ...
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    Last edited by Pleiades; 04-04-2020, 12:08 PM.

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  • Pleiades
    replied to [V5] Montreal
    oh I see, my bad lol

    church of Caine used to be one of the sabbat's names, that's why I confused it with the sabbat...
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  • Pleiades
    replied to [V5] Montreal
    yeah, but instead of "modern" extension, I'd say "fallen" or "broken" extension,

    the Cainite heresy saw themselves as gods/angels on earth,
    the sabbat see themselves as damned creatures

    you could say the sabbat is the Cainite heresy admitting that they were wrong after their spectacular failure during the Inquisition

    at least, that's the big picture

    if we're going into details, the Path of Caine is supposed to have had influence from the Cainite heresy,
    the path supposedly was started by Assamite Noddists...
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  • to fight the monster, one must become the monster

    not all hunters adhere to that mentality, but those don't survive long enough to matter

    it's not a hunter only thing,
    if you look at vampire history, most of the extreme (evil) factions were born in adversity, out of necessity or desperation...
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  • Pleiades
    replied to Humanity in Antediluvians
    man, your questions are so loaded, it's a pain trying to answer

    in the new edition, Antes with humanity is perfectly possible, since humanity is now more flexible

    in older editions, a humanity rating of 1-3 is also ok for an Ante,
    but that doesn't make them less of a monster

    humanity 1-3 is not something you'd call "humane"


    that said, alot of the antediluvians are already hinted at being on alternate moralities (Tzimisce on metamorphosis, Zappa on Paradox, Saulot on Heaven etc..),

    the only ones that I think...
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  • it's a...rather problematic stat to have

    it grants advantages, to both you and your pack
    gives you access to black hand contacts, possible mentors, intel etc,
    best of all is that you won't be targeted by the black hand (most of the time) and you can vouch for your packmates if they get targeted

    but the drawbacks are wack,
    you get additional responsibilities. as if being sabbat, and part of a pack, wasn't enough, you have to answer any call for action from the black hand (which can conflict with the pack's agenda or the local bishop's agenda...and it...
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    Last edited by Pleiades; 03-19-2020, 06:04 AM.

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  • Pleiades
    replied to Dark Ages Settings...
    A long time ago In a galaxy far, far away...
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  • doesn't matter either way,
    VtM doesn't need to be a dungeon crawl (or Umbra crawl) to allow disciplines to affect spirits

    even if you ignore the Umbra. spirits, wraiths, demons are still a thing

    you can have potence 9, protean 9 and presence 9
    yet if a Tremere/giovanni sends a spirit to your haven, or a koldun decides to fire bomb the whole neighborhood,
    the rules dictate that you.can't.do.shit
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  • that's what koldunism is supposed to be, dominate/presence for spirits,
    why did they have to make it its own blood magic? I don't know

    the guys at old WW really loved blood magic and kept wasting pages and pages on it instead of improving the discipline systems



    no, it shouldn't be more than 5 imo
    iirc, summoning and binding high lvl demons was a lvl 5 thing for thaumaturgy (the risk of failure should be enough of a deterrent, anyway)

    any higher would make the power pointless, why restrict the power to low gens when most other splats...
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  • yes,
    and that's one reason the Camarilla's been chained to the Tremere all this time,
    and that's why the Sabbat have such a history with infernalism, why they have to tolerate kupala and its kolduns and the now defunct house goratrix,
    and why the Inquisition are making things even harder by targeting every goddamn blood mage and their dog

    all other splats are given more or less accessible ways to handle the spiritual plains,
    and even if it's not very accessible, the spirits don't necessarily see them as threats

    cainites have difficult access to...
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    Last edited by Pleiades; 03-17-2020, 08:30 AM.

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  • like I said, the paths weren't well developed until way after the Devil Tiger book,
    the Devil Tiger book was a mold breaker

    and even after they were developed more deeply, the Dharmas still had more complexity, as befits the kuei-jin,
    while the paths were still more simple, as befitted cainites

    like, Cathari are all about spreading Sin, but reject the teachings of pain from Lilins,
    the Devil Tigers take it all, and have the whole punish sinners on top, making their philosophy very complex compared to the Cainite ones

    I don't mean it in a...
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  • this post is my opinion only, I can tell you why I liked it, but not why others did

    both the Devil Tiger and the Thrashing Dragons books are really good,
    the devil tiger one came first, which makes it the mold breaker so to speak

    those books are a...philosophical? study on evil, sin, pain etc, but on a deep and nuanced manner,
    that is different from the usual "hehe, just burn things, cause it's fun"

    in my opinion, the best way to understand their value is to compare them the Sabbat paths of enlightenment

    the Sabbat paths,...
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  • Pleiades
    replied to Garou vs Kindred?
    yes, ward vs technology ("technology" as in "anything more advanced than a crossbow")
    but there's only one or a handful of elders on the Inconnu that have it, and they ain't sharing, and blood magic is hard to get either way

    granted, it was a Revised era ward iirc, not sure if it was updated for v20

    either way, doesn't matter, since a ward vs technology hurts the vampires as much as it helps...
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  • Pleiades
    replied to V5 - Lupine power level
    in the settings that have lupines as integral (Revised in my case),
    there are several elements that need werewolves,

    for example,

    - having vampires as primarily city creatures

    - Prince wants you dead for breaking the masquerade or whatever, leaving is gonna be a difficult option because of lupines,
    or maybe it's your only option since the prince's goons will be hesitant to follow you to lupine territory

    - autarkis and nomads first obstacle is lupines,
    lupines are the number one reason there are few of them, and one way for sects...
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    Last edited by Pleiades; 03-07-2020, 11:29 AM.

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  • Pleiades
    replied to V5 - Lupine power level
    well, the real problem is that Lupines (Garou or not), are integral to VtM,
    I can't imagine a VtM setting without them,
    but it's been 20 years and we still don't have a good system for handling them (in VtM)

    the basic templates in the core books aren't enough,
    and the WtA garou are too much

    and giving every supernatural access to the umbra and making them in some way immune (or resistant) to blood bond, the kiss or mind powers.
    while at the same time, restricting access to blood magic for vampires makes no sense...
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  • Pleiades
    replied to V5 - Lupine power level
    yeah well, turns out Garou aren't helpless on that department either,
    there's at least 4 garou tribes that can handle themselves just fine on vampire turf, and have spirits to back them up,
    in fact, they have a much easier time than vampires (especially the cyber-garou ones)

    the less city-oriented garou also have mortal ties through kinfolk, and will usually employ spirits to handle city-related work

    and that's only the werewolves,
    cause if you get into were-spiders, were-panthers etc, it gets worse and worse for vampires



    not...
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  • Pleiades
    replied to V5 - Lupine power level
    the Mithras case is one of those cases where fluff doesn't match mechanics, it's been the subject of debate before,
    Mithras would have definitely killed a bunch of the attackers, but not survived



    actually, that's the vampire's problem,
    their reliance on mind control and blood bonds makes them toast against supernaturals that can resist or are downright immune to both (such as hunters and kuei-jin),

    in the garou case, the garou are virtually immune to blood bonds and can roll a stat to resist mind powers (I think it was rage, I don't remember),...
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  • Pleiades
    replied to V5 - Lupine power level
    Enkidu maybe (4th gens are walking plot devices). Karsh?...eh, I don't think so (does he even have published stats?)

    as far as I can remember, Garou were already a problem in revised,
    could side step into the umbra at any time,
    vampires had good blood magic to counter that (thaumaturgy for cam, koldunism and dark thaum for sabbat),
    but blood magic was hard to get and not politically correct in either sect (which was one of the flaws of the fluff, considering garou were an active threat for both sects)

    in V20 it got worse, garou had to use reflective...
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    Last edited by Pleiades; 03-06-2020, 02:10 PM.

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