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  • most likely,
    since the new sabbat environment is not favorable for scholars and research (I weep for all the labs, libraries and relics the sabbat had to give up to the camarilla)

    that's, if they didn't get retconed, which is even more likely (they kinda retconned the harbingers and samedi already)...
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  • I didn't mention V5 a single time, and I certainly wasn't defending it,
    I was only criticising the pre-v5 systems and giving my own thoughts on how 6+ disciplines could better be implemented (only on the surface level though, because I don't think I have what it takes to go in depth)

    if you want my opinion on the v5 system,
    I like some of it, don't like most of it...I would use a few of its ideas, but overall it's not for me,
    that doesn't mean the pre-v5 stuff doesn't need a rework...
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    Last edited by Pleiades; 07-08-2020, 07:56 PM.

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  • I'm wondering about those spirits of inanimate objects and plants,
    are they from our side of the gauntlet or are they still on the other side?

    their description in VtM makes it sound like they're on our side...
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  • in VtM, you can talk to spirits of inanimate objects and plants (thaumaturgy - elemental mastery, green path) for investigating

    I'm no expert on WtA, I assumed Garou had such abilities as well?...
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  • 6+ was a bad system,
    the 6+ disciplines were too expensive for questionable usefulness/power/versatility,
    plus it didn't make sense for there to only be 5 or 6 disciplines at lvl 1-5, while 6+ had a alot of them, even if some of them would fit better in the 1-5 category

    I was thinking that rather than adding 6+ disciplines, the 1-5 disciplines would gain in potency as you lowered your generation becoming elder disciplines,

    for example,
    if you're high generation, dominate 2 requires eye contact,
    if you lower your generation to 7, your dominate 2...
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    Last edited by Pleiades; 07-08-2020, 03:11 PM.

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  • OP said "they can't move - they're here on Sire's orders", and they're outside the city,
    meaning this coterie is probably the first vampires those garou are gonna meet, and this won't end well for the coterie, even if the garou don't know they're the killers,

    I believe Garou can identify the killers by interrogating spirits that may have witnessed the slaughter,
    even if the spirits can't point them towards the killers, they can just tell them "some vampires did it", and already the coterie is in danger...
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    Last edited by Pleiades; 07-08-2020, 03:16 PM.

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  • when the lupines attack, have an NPC (or NPCs) attack the lupines out of nowhere, maybe kill a few of them and distract the others long enough to let the coterie escape or something
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  • Tremere can get them on board by just promising to repay the favour (tremere services are valuable),
    or they could threaten to stop providing service to those that rely on them

    getting others on board from the kindness of their heart would be a huge stretch,

    the mage would have to be a threat to the masquerade or murder vampires regularly to make it a camarilla problem (and even then, they may just decide to vacate the city...which the camarilla often does when facing a major supernatural threat such as lupines, hunters or mages)...
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  • um no, that's not how it works,
    the best you can expect from the camarilla is the Tremere helping you...for a price (unless the mage is a common enemy of theirs...in which case they'll still feign ignorance to exploit you)

    and even then, you'll still be the one arranging for the killing,
    a Tremere may point you towards your target, even help you with some trinket or ritual or whatever,
    but getting a Tremere to do the killing for you is gonna require alot of pull...
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  • koldunism isn't exclusive to kupala or the tzimisce,
    (in mexico, there was Tlaloc that could teach koldunism),

    Baba Yaga probably was some kind of shaman when alive and it just became koldunism after embrace
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  • Tzimisce learned koldunism from Kupala

    Baba Yaga is most likely a koldun,
    however, her stats present her as having thaumaturgy (that was before there were rules for koldunism, so we can't tell for certain)...
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  • you can't,
    vampires don't go to war against mages, unless they are cornered and have no other choice,
    they'd sooner run than fight in this scenario,
    and most vampires won't care about that one vampire that got killed (vampires tend to blame the victims)

    if you want revenge on the mage, you'll have to do it through proxies,
    through mortal assassins, other mages or a deal with a demon/spirit etc

    you don't want the revenge to be traced back to you

    as for the gardenchair thing, it could rile up vampires, but in most cases, all they'll...
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  • I can agree on everything except Daimonion 6, since it still counts as an investment and you still pay the price for being granted the power

    but even if we disregard that, the fact remains that apart from the koldun and abyss mystics, sabbat don't practice daimonion nor demonology on a regular basis,
    and that's...curious?

    daimonion is nowhere to be seen,
    mysticism is held exclusively by the lasombra, and even among their ranks, it's a niche practice due to it being dangerous,

    that leaves koldunism,
    but while Revised made koldunism more accessible...
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  • what about a young fool who has magic resistance? :/

    also, they do offer exclusive benefits https://whitewolf.fandom.com/wiki/Demonic_Investment
    these don't include Devil's due investments (also check investments from Daimonion)



    I wouldn't say they are worse, but sabbat don't create diseases and don't syphon souls to Hell,
    hell, they don't even use attomic bombs or spirit nukes...hmm...
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  • I'd love it if sabbat could have demonic powers and features similar to Devil Tigers

    as for infernalism,
    in 2nd ed, demons picked anyone
    in Revised, they were more picky due to the Inquisition being successful
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  • the first city
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  • note that camarilla and their political games are juvenile as well,
    there's nothing mature about what they're doing, it's glorified high school drama

    the objective here isn't to make the sabbat look less childish, childish is what vampires in general are

    and, while I'm not against the sabbat being all about splatter, the whole thing just doesn't make sense in universe

    the 2e sabbat being all gorry about everything was fun and all,
    but it required alot of suspension of disbelief to accept that such a lifestyle was sustainable, or even possible...
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  • I don't like comparing the sabbat to the anarchs,
    since the sabbat, like the Camarilla, have their own Anarchs (called the Loyalists) who are just Anarchs with Vinculum

    the sabbat didn't offer more fun,
    they had worse clan weaknesses (unless you were lasombra) and weaker chargen (since sabbat had no points in backgrounds),
    and taking on a path required spending points on willpower and lose up to two points in virtues (depending on path)

    what the sabbat did offer, was a different way to play the horror,

    in the camarilla, age meant everything,...
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    Last edited by Pleiades; 07-05-2020, 10:32 AM.

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  • no, I doubt the sabbat would chase after them for revenge,
    the sabbat owed them more than they owed the sabbat,
    and one of the leaders of the sect (the lasombra) just packed up and left, selling out and murdering sect elders and neonates alike on their way out,

    if anything, it's the sabbat that betrayed the harbingers and not the other way around...
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  • yet you go back to playing the punisher...LOGIC...
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