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  • Honestly? The Wyrmhole was going to have its due no matter what. I've been running possible scenarios for the Howlers to survive in my head, and in none of those it is workable. The Howlers couldn't leave and let the hole there fester. Even if they stood guard at it, the corruption would have been just slower. Even if they created a multi-tribal guard, the BSDs would have just been born from variety of tribes rather than a single one.

    But after the Howlers fell, I think in some way the Wyrmhole had done its purpose, because you never hear about it again....
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  • Ana Mizuki
    replied to Changing Ways thoughts
    Breeding metis for shock troops is kinda risky in many other ways, too. Metis deformities are a gamble, unless you really wanna risk things and try to get spirits to give the appropriate deformity Then there is the survival rate of the mother, pregnancy that is 9 months, the fact that Player's Guide for Garou actually lists mass producing metis as a very legit crime and that the spirits of honor/wisdom will rat you out to other septs.

    If we want to go in UTTERLY pragmatic way in terms of breeding program without getting morality in the way, buying/stealing a bunch of high content...
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    Last edited by Ana Mizuki; 01-19-2018, 04:51 AM.

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  • What if the Howlers had gotten help?

    Note, this thread is using the White Howlers from the White Howler tribebook, which differs from the way the tribe was presented previously.

    Basically, the question in the title. What if other tribes HAD come to help the Howlers, what if they had a proper army to go into the Wyrm hole?

    Personally, I don't think they'd have won. By that time, the Wyrm was all ready a pretty constant threat to the world, given fomor were found among the Romans. That, and you cannot defeat the Wyrm by beating it hard....
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  • Ana Mizuki
    replied to Changing Ways thoughts
    Just updating on the not-changes; Longstrider still comes out of nowhere and the word alpha is still used in the lupus chapter.

    But, to other things. One thing that kinda confuses me, is the whole 'let us breed metis as shock troops for our sept so other garou can be safe!' that pops up. First of all, birthing a metis is always a risk (as the book itself helpfully notes) and then you have to reality of raising a child for 10 years to make them worth the effort. Simply, it is a slow arse way to bulk up your defenses. Not to mention, the exact way BSDs function. Though, BSDs have both...
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  • Ana Mizuki
    replied to Changing Ways thoughts
    Well, at least the Fury Males was fixed....
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  • Ana Mizuki
    replied to Changing Ways thoughts
    Maris, you are equating a group of women hating men with an established culture of rape and murder for breeding. If these Furies hate men, why would they even care to have sex to breed with them at all? Even if they need to breed, if they are in that state where they cannot stand men, their tribe would not actually consider them Mothers until they'd found someone they can stand to be with.

    Besides, if we want to look what the Furies were in the 1st ed when everyone was at their worst, here is what it said about Furies;



    Not one peep of man hate there. I think...
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  • Ana Mizuki
    replied to Changing Ways thoughts
    Yes, a duty that your whole tribe holds sacred and every member is categorized by it. But that doesn't mean every member is expected to bear children, after all, you can have maidens and crones as babysitters for your children so you can go fight your war. This sacredness also means that you would be very careful who the father would be, since you'd want your child to be strong and healthy. There is a heck a lot of planning and thinking among the Furies to become a mother, for it to be something forced upon a garou hating men so much they can't deal with having sex with one. Or, hey, maybe they...
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  • Ana Mizuki
    replied to Changing Ways thoughts
    As someone with a female body and who was raised female, if I well and truly hated men so much that a consensual sexual encounter would be impossible for me to even consider... I'd just not bother with the penis. Like, seriously, if the options are no sex with men and stalking and raping a man to get children, I'd rather stick with women. Besides, let us remember that Furies consider the ability to create life sacred and that rape is a perversion of that. All of that, plus the fact that garou nation places a huge heap of expectations for you based on your ancestors.

    Why the heck would...
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  • Ana Mizuki
    replied to Changing Ways thoughts
    Because the point of the sentence isn't to inform of Fury or Talon culture, it is to be cheap kneejerk for the reader. It is nonsensical otherwise....
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  • Ana Mizuki
    replied to Changing Ways thoughts
    I think it is even simpler than that. The paragraph was about homid on wolf-kin, remember. So, Red Talons and Furies forcing male homids to mate with wolf-kin is there to make the reader go eww....
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  • Ana Mizuki
    replied to Changing Ways thoughts
    First, because people see both tribes as very edge cases and so they are stereotyped to hell and back. There is so much more positive stuff found on forums on Fangs, Lords and Fenrir. Meanwhile, Talons and Furies get treated as very extremist and, as we see in this thread, even have a lot of House Rules making them worse.

    Second, ParaWolf has an issue with including very kneejerky stuff in their books. Avery the Trans Trump supporter killer, The Ventrue pedophile in the public playtest and so on. The section where that paragraph was found, discussed if homid garou on wolf-kin is beastiality....
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  • Ana Mizuki
    replied to Changing Ways thoughts
    Aside from the feminism bit, let us remember that the Black Furies also are based on a very real worship of a creator mother. The fact that a woman can createsentient life, another person, in her body, was very mystical to old animistic cultures. That is another reason why the rape analog doesn't work, because Furies consider the ability to create life sacred to being a woman (hence the Maiden,Mother,Crone thing). Just like Gaia created the garou and the world. Meanwhile, rape mocks the act and therefore is tainted by the wyrm.

    Also, why the added males make zero sense to me. Furies...
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  • Ana Mizuki
    replied to Changing Ways thoughts
    At this point, I am more worried why people are so damn obsessed with Furies raping men for breeding. I get that a lot of people want the setting to be very dark, but kinfolk exist and are willing to mate with them -according to the books-. That, and WtA's draw is also that the garou have a point at parts. Furies especially are written to combat a very real thing even in our world, even if both they and their IRL inspiration at times do mess up. Portraying them as slavering beasts raping men and hating them with insane passion doesn't make the setting better, it takes away the nuance the tribe...
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  • Ana Mizuki
    replied to Changing Ways thoughts
    It says something about how people see the tribes,when people have not tried to dispute the Red Talon part at all, but Fury gets combated.
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  • Ana Mizuki
    replied to Changing Ways thoughts
    In a game that deals with so many different takes, real life cultures that older editions messed up badly and 20+ years of headcanons, it is pretty hard to discuss anything without at least some sort of a baseline to refer to. I like a lot of the older books, note.But when some say that garou are rited on the same day they Change and others say it can much longer, it can be hard to really have a good discussion on things relating to cubs.

    I mean, yeah. The book is published, it will be used. If we get lucky, parts will be agreed to be ignored, like with Children of Gaia revised. But...
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  • Ana Mizuki
    replied to Changing Ways thoughts
    It is just hard to have a discussion when everyone is speaking from different editions/headcanons, so having a some sort of baseline in these conversations is important. W20 is generally well received, so its used.

    The issue I am speaking with that statement is more about people coming stating that Fenrir are neo-nazi to a wolf, or that Fianna are all drunks. Or that Furies are all man-murdering misandries. It isn't that those things don't exist in the current setting, but that the older editions could be inaccurate of their native cultures or just freakin' weird like the Furies in...
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  • Ana Mizuki
    replied to Changing Ways thoughts
    It is only the tribe in 2nd edition core, at most. Not even 1st ed, actually. I am certain, as well, since I actually did a lot of digging through the books exactly on this.

    Here's the looksie to how Black Furies see males from older cores; http://forum.theonyxpath.com/forum/m...696#post980696

    And here's the part from W20;




    This is exactly the issue mentioned few pages ago, of how people will stick to older...
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  • Ana Mizuki
    replied to Changing Ways thoughts
    That isn't the tribe that is found in W20, though. The way you describe things is more headcanon and 2nd edition book description than what the tribe is in the current books.

    The text has issues, because it states that Furies as a tribe have male homids. They don't. Even if they did, I'm sure they'd rather have their male -lupus- breed with wolf kinfolk. The word used in the paragraph is 'force', as well. So yes, it truly seems that beastiality rape is implied.

    Worse, it goes onto to describe, how Red Talons (the tribe that prides itself in having NO human blood) kidnap...
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  • Ana Mizuki
    replied to Changing Ways thoughts
    The Fury thing isn't about the metis section, its the lupus section stating they have male homids who are forced to have sex with their wolf kin. Something that is very far from how the tribe works.

    I do agree on the homosexuality part, though. It felt very forced and weird to be added like that, especially in the metis section. That and the quiet acceptance of farming metis for war, I get that in theory but a huge thing about metis has been that they always take at least one trained warrior from the battle at best. Like Maris Streck there pointed out, previous books noted why homosexuality...
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  • Ana Mizuki
    replied to Changing Ways thoughts
    Aah, I get your point here. Sorry, I misunderstood (and didn't notice the blue hair thing)....
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Ana Mizuki
Ana Mizuki
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