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[Ana Mizuki]

The 2nd edition did a lot, and I mean a LOT, to make Forsaken stand on its own compared to Apocalypse.

Why do Uratha join tribes, an issue that a lot of people had asked for a good reason, was answered. Each tribe has its own special prey they hunt. Going into the uratha as hunters more than warriors.

Uratha can breed with one another now, and Wolf-blooded are no longer just sorta-related to the uratha but their own type of supernatural thing. This avoid them being treated like kinfolk was in WtA.

The pack is now like a three-stage cult to which ANYONE can...

[Ana Mizuki]

Yeah, I have always seen cub-hood for lupus as including things like how to NOT break the veil in cities (even the W20 section on Red Talons notes they do this.) The mentality that lupus get rited the -month- they change has always bothered me. Because garou society is far more complex than the wolf one, so how the heck would a lupus even get rited/understand auspice role/tribe, without learning to think more 'human'? Those things aren't instinctual, after all.

As well as the freebie thing, I've always seen it as the things the lupus learned post-change. They can also have rituals...

[Ana Mizuki]

I've always felt people make playing lupus into a much MUCH harder thing than it actually is. Everyone is talking about realism, when basically all you need is to think the lupus as shapeshifting smart wolves. Aside from the shapeshifting part, I have seen people roleplay plain intelligent wolves just fine over the years.

Domain of the Wolf is an art roleplaying game where you play as a wolf trying to live among packs of humanized wolves. While it looks cartoony, it can often get REAL dark with its content, to WoD levels. If these adult people can play mere wolves just fine, what...

[Ana Mizuki]

Which is why I made this thread, because the sole reason Metis are deformed and sterile by setting themes, is due to them being children of incest and to avoid garou breeding with one another. Everything in their design says 'inbred freak child hidden in the Caern from people.' There is no werewolf myth themed reason to fall back on, and that is important when it comes to reconstructuring the setting.

Forsaken dropped the unihar, because werewolves not breeding with one another due to a disabled child wasn't as impactful as in WtA. Not to mention, it also created a very kinfolk-like...

[Ana Mizuki]

Canonically, homids breeding with wolf-kin is a thing. But honestly, there are lupus garou as well. But yeah, despite what I've seen over the years, generally garou do not see regular wolves as just animal, as they ARE part wolf as well as human. Like lupus garou can see homid kin as potential mates....

[Ana Mizuki]

Plus let us remember that metis deformities are random, you literally cannot predict if the kid gets horns or brittle bones. Or that a metis pregnancy is full 9 months to wolves' 2, the mother might not survive or becomes infertile. Also, metis at MOST come in twins, lupus produce more pups per litter.

The mass-production of metis is slow and you are likely to lose 1 garou per pup. The wait time for that pup to grow enough to be useful is also wayyyyy longer than with lupus pups.

[Ana Mizuki]

Yeah, Heavy Arms you got me there with the point on no one wanting to actually fix the metis condition.

That is actually really interesting, as it implies that while a lot of garou accept the breed, they still think they sort of deserve to be like that. I mean, yeah, kinfolk and all that. But it is a good thing that could be more discussed in the setting. Rather than just assumed as a sad truth.

[Ana Mizuki]

I don't think it is politically correct to reconsider metis' role as 'punishment', as many players of WoD are disabled themselves (one of them, yo.) Or that the abuse they face is 'justified' if even a little. Heavy Arms above offered a good alternative way to justify the metis without implying disability is a punishment....

[Ana Mizuki]

Just a note, I'm not saying metis should be taken out. Basically just thinking on what a writer would change if they were going for different take on werewolves in the setting.

What about them is werewolf rather than another trope? In Forsaken, as cool as the unihar were, the uratha never really NEEDED metis the same way as garou do.

I'd change the name to something like Pravus (bad/misshapen in latin) to imply how they can be seen. I'd also maybe take away more 'human' deformities, to imply that what is wrong with metis isn't due to them being disabled/infertile but...

[Ana Mizuki]

So let us say that you get to decide some aspect of the (to be) 5th edition, mainly the breeds. You still want homid and lupus to be there, but what about metis?

Here I move to the meat of this thread. If WtA faces the kind of heavy restructuring that Vampire went under, should the metis breed still remain in the game?

For one, what message does it send to the players that the garouxgarou child is a deformed and infertile creature, named rather poorly as metis? This isn't 90s anymore, we are more aware of players who are disabled. Or what about the actual Canadian metis...

Totally meant to send that as a private message

[Ana Mizuki]

They don't get harmed by it in breedform, though. I mean, yeah, they cannot soak agg-damage. But it isn't -insta- burn....