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  • This is another artifact of the Serpents of the Light predating the expansion of Serpentis. The Cobras were introduced in The Players Guide to the Sabbat (1992), several years before even the first Setite clanbook (1995) was released. Originally Set wasn't hardcoded into Serpentis at all, and the elder powers of the Discipline were all about temptation, obsession, and corruption -- something the Serpents of the Light would have employed as deftly as the original clan.

    It seems that nobody really thought about the "Setite antitribu" when Serpentis was revised and codified...
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  • I've probably said this before, but the Sabbat really don't need a lot of realigning to be the ISIL equivalent of the vampire world -- they're already an insane, hyperviolent religious cult that practices and encourages terrorism across the globe....
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  • The original clan distributions directly contribute to the themes and feel of each sect, though -- the Camarilla is monolithic and the Sabbat is a melting pot. The early White Wolf writers also really liked to present various things in groups of 7 or 13, so the Camarilla had 7 clans and the Sabbat had 13 (including Panders), even though the Sabbat was clearly said to be the smaller of the two.

    Tastes differ, of course, but I quite like how as a result the Camarilla feels more structured and the Sabbat more scattershot, even at a cursory glance. It's also an excuse to keep the Camarilla...
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  • 1st Edition core Thaumaturgy is a perfectly acceptable Discipline -- but that's because it was originally a 'closed' set of powers like all the other Disciplines at levels 1-5. There were only 4 known Paths (originally called Forms), and no rules for adding more. Even the original Players Guide, which introduced Discipline levels 6-10, is unclear about whether you can pick up any Thaumaturgy Path from the start, or whether new Paths can only be added once you have Thaumaturgy 6+. (A strict reading of the text actually supports the latter interpretation, which would make 1st Edition Thaumaturgy...
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  • Applying the term revenant to hereditary ghouls used to bug me until I realized it's actually fairly consistent with how the term ghoul is used in Masquerade -- poetically rather than literally. While the word revenant has strong connotations with supernatural creatures, at its root it just means 'returning.' Just as ghouls are called ghouls in the World of Darkness because they eat the blood of the dead, revenants are revenants because they generate their own vitae. In both cases it makes sense that vampires would emphasize what happens to the blood.

    That said, if you want an alternative...
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  • Elphilm
    replied to Using Kuei-jin
    I figure that's what the original White Wolf writers were going for, back when Cathayans were still things like the Gaki and Bushi clans. Since the original Cathayans were revised to be ill-informed Western portrayals of the Kuei-jin, the term Cathayan was probably meant to inherit those prejudices, hence the Kuei-jin scorn for it....
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  • Elphilm
    replied to Using Kuei-jin
    Cathay is an old (Western) term that has been applied to various people, and is sometimes used poetically of China. In that sense it's broadly similar to using Albion for Britain. I guess Brits would also look askance at someone who insisted on calling them "Albionians."...
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  • Elphilm
    replied to Using Kuei-jin
    Yeah, they're the same word, just using different Romanization systems. If you were pronouncing qi as chi you were doing it right all along, but I doubt an English speaker who has never heard of the term before would think to pronounce the former like the latter. ...
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  • Elphilm
    replied to Using Kuei-jin
    It's funny, because the Wade-Giles Romanization of the Mandarin Chinese 鬼人 would be Kuei-jen, without ever having to bring Japanese into the mix. Of course, that would still be a singularly unhelpful transcription (as the Wade-Giles system tends to produce), since a j at the beginning of a word is meant to be pronounced as r in Wade-Giles.

    The Pinyin system renders the term far better (as Gui Ren), of course. Yet even Pinyin has its quirks; for example, Chi is of central importance in any Kindred of the East game, yet Pinyin uses q for the English ch sound, which is not intuitive...
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  • Elphilm
    replied to Using Kuei-jin
    I'm sympathetic to the argument (I've made it myself!), but I do think that the Kuei-jin are unique and coherent enough to deserve their own game line. They're also a rare instance where the core implementation of a concept (spontaneously rising undead) is decidedly non-Western, while their Western counterparts (the Kanbujian) are relegated to footnotes. Typically things go the other way around, especially in roleplaying games.

    The term Kuei-jin may need an update, though. ...
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  • Yeah, I figured dropping Demon Chi was the reason.
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  • Elphilm
    replied to Using Kuei-jin
    Yeah. Like 11twiggins, I've argued for mechanical unity among vampires in the past, but the fact is that in a few short years White Wolf produced such a wealth of vibrant material for the Kindred of the East line that it seems like a massive waste to toss most of it away at this point. I may have issues with the tone and mechanics of the original books, but those are not insurmountable problems that KotE20 couldn't fix....
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  • Nice ideas all around, Lian. I especially like the notion of consulship and the Quincunx-Camarilla ties.


    While I think the basic idea is good, 4 vs 8 xp seems a little too much. On the other hand, I don't particularly care for the fact that Kuei-jin Disciplines are as costly as Mage Spheres, so I might be tempted to bump the numbers down to 7 for most Disciplines and 5 for Demon Arts, mirroring the in-Clan and out-of-Clan costs for Kindred....
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  • Elphilm
    replied to Nagaraja Thread
    That's as good a rule of thumb as any, and one I've been using for a long time. Anything less than several thousand members for each Clan feels too small, and at the opposite end of the spectrum, tens of thousands per Clan is too much for me. Exceptions are possible -- I like to think of the Giovanni as only having numbers comparable to the largest bloodlines, but with financial and political influence that rivals the major Clans, hence their status as a Clan....
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  • Elphilm
    replied to Nagaraja Thread
    One thing to keep in mind with the Nagaraja is that they were originally written when the concept of Paths of Enlightenment was only a few years old, and the game was far more ready to hand out Paths to player characters. Every vampire in the Sabbat was on a Path of Enlightenment, and the same was true for the bloodlines of the True Black Hand. DSotBH listed the preferred Paths of the Nagaraja as Death and the Soul, Self-Focus, Lilith, and Scorched Heart. Some of these Paths had nothing against killing humans as such; for example, the original Path of the Scorched Heart included the failure to...
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Elphilm
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