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  • MarkK
    replied to Is Oblivion worthless?
    Oh, hey, I'm not saying it works effectively in this case, I'm just saying how it comes off by this point and how the mindset behind it feels.
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  • MarkK
    replied to Is Oblivion worthless?
    It's worth remembering that it comes off like a built in goal with the V5 Camarilla that it isn't to be some carefully thought out (by which I mean, the writers carefully thinking out how it would need to function to reconcile with detail x, y or z) tangible entity that functions within internal setting constraints. It's mostly to be a thematic antagonist punching bag for the Anarchs as a commentary on society's ills. So you can say "but logically" or even "but your own writing now says", it's just, even if pointed out, I doubt that would get anything but a reply of "yeah,...
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    Last edited by MarkK; 06-27-2022, 02:56 PM.

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  • MarkK
    replied to Is Oblivion worthless?
    In no way does this reply to anything I said.

    You said this, as part of an effort to claim there was no real significant shift in Brujah numbers in terms of the sect notation change, that any Brujah who considered themselves actually Camarilla were not a significant departure from it:



    Finding this odd, given the way certain 5th ed content presents itself, I said this:



    You, in response, said this:



    I, directly quoting this statement, said this, commenting on this statement:



    Nothing...
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    Last edited by MarkK; 06-26-2022, 10:44 PM.

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  • MarkK
    replied to Is Oblivion worthless?
    Then you're talking about what you want VtM to be in your personal headspace and using it to dismiss people trying to talk about the actual game, if that is your reply to things like "in the actual books, this person says" and "to change from being listed as a primary clan of one sect, to a primary clan of another sect, means at the most basic level there was enough of a shift to make that happen."

    If you want to talk about "always" and start reaching back into the gameline over the years, and talk about the actual game, the game material itself has varied...
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  • MarkK
    replied to Is Oblivion worthless?
    Why would you talk about Gangrel Archons when trying to claim something about the Brujah?



    It is noted in the Camarilla book by Damian that enough non Anarch Brujah left the Camarilla to put a dent in various cities Primogen councils and reduce the Camarilla's boots on the ground strength in such places. The idea that but some sprinkling of Cam Brujah left does not bear out. Enough Brujah went in full to the Anarchs that were not Anarchs before that the Brujah are now considered a primary Anarch clan, as opposed to a clan where a bunch of them are Anarchs. That last...
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  • MarkK
    replied to Is Oblivion worthless?
    Not for nothing, but while not the world's biggest fan of the Sabbat, there was more to do with them in V20 than play them as moustache twirling villains, and we've seen a hojillion threads at this point of fans of the Sabbat going into such things.



    I will however agree that "playing the Camarilla is an evil choice for evil" is something that characterizes V5 and a lot of work was put in to make the sect the busted up cartoon that fits that mission statement. And that there are outright "the Anarchs are the protagonists now" stuff, and so forth....
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  • MarkK
    replied to Is Oblivion worthless?
    That does not address that any numbers of Lasombra, once again, rare correct use, literally left the cities they were previously in to go to Camarilla cities they were not in. The Sabbat abandoning cities does not mean by default the defector Lasombra got to keep them. They are intentionally attempting to spread their numbers into existing Camarilla domains. That's part of their entire plan.

    On sheer simple narrative construction, if a concerted effort to move into new places is happening, it means the old places are being left by the people moving into new places.

    It...
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    Last edited by MarkK; 06-26-2022, 01:06 PM.

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  • MarkK
    replied to Is Oblivion worthless?
    I'm gonna try to help CTPhipps out for a minute here.

    To be fair, some Lasombra did in fact manage to hold onto such power as they clawed out for themselves in places, right from the book. For example, there's a bit from a member of the clan about how the Clan still holds onto their Church influence, apparently in the face of retaining little all else, to the point of looking like they have no other mortal influence coming into new cities. Though it's honestly... not that impressive for the shine they try to put on how important it is that they did when they have to talk about it...
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    Last edited by MarkK; 06-26-2022, 11:54 AM.

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  • MarkK
    replied to Is Oblivion worthless?
    Page reference? Because there are actual printed words saying the Lasombra are trying to get into cities where they did not have a real presence before (some of them quoted even in this thread). That literally, and this verges on being a rare case where the word literally is possibly being used correctly, means any number of them had to leave cities, to go to other cities, and try to be acknowledged in them.



    The Lasombra are down a significant chunk of their clan, and are suffering their own Elder losses. Times aren't great for them either.

    I mean the game...
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  • MarkK
    replied to Is Oblivion worthless?
    Since the issue of "where are you even getting this from" is becoming a central thing: Just so no one feels I said "this is directly from the book" without offering up something more concrete, you can find the concept that the Lasombra in fact had to make meaningful sacrifices, endure meaningfully bad treatment, will have to deal with harsher policies than Kevin Jackson's, that their entry to the Camarilla is an uneven one that, in some of the following places of Chicago By Night for 5th edition Vampire. They establish that even in a forgiving read, the entry to the Camarilla...
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    Last edited by MarkK; 06-26-2022, 02:50 AM. Reason: I used the word certainly something like eleventy million times in this post. Also other minor touch ups.

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  • MarkK
    replied to Is Oblivion worthless?
    Could you give a page reference for that?...
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    Last edited by MarkK; 06-25-2022, 06:12 PM.

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  • MarkK
    replied to Is Oblivion worthless?
    To again note, the Lasombra have been required just fine to go after non Sabbat members as part of joining the Camarilla, due, amongst other things, to various princes preferring far harsher terms to get into their cities. They've also been subject to a variety of other punitive requirements in several domains. That's right from the book. Talley was helping the Lasombra defectors kill Sabbat Lasombra and ended up on the to die list anyway, right from the book.

    The book tells us that the Lasombra entrance to the Camarilla will become on entirely varied terms from city to city, and...
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    Last edited by MarkK; 06-24-2022, 07:51 PM.

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  • MarkK
    replied to Is Oblivion worthless?
    The book itself did not take your perspective as far as the Lasombra themselves acknowledging they had made an in some ways desperate choice in extreme circumstances that they had and will suffer for, just believing the suffering would eventually dissipate. This was noted the last time this idea was discussed and you attempted to put forward the concept that the Lasombra had managed to play the Camarilla for fools. Book got directly cited to demonstrate things like "only Sabbat elders" was specifically not true in other domains as far as Lasombra noting the outright harsh conditions...
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    Last edited by MarkK; 06-24-2022, 07:00 PM. Reason: grammar

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  • MarkK
    replied to Is Oblivion worthless?
    Well no, as design choices go, VtM 5th maintaining its structural and thematic integrity mostly by attempted punitive measures and setting fire to various play options is inching close enough to the land of inherently bad you can see it without a telescope. It speaks to the level of assumed disdain for even its players people outside WoD gaming would lobby as a critique at it. "If we let these rules support something other than our precious and artistic interpretation of how this game should play, you'll be doing it- gasp- wrong, therefore the game will actively work against the very idea."...
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  • MarkK
    replied to Is Oblivion worthless?
    I think when discussion of the game ever supporting broader play options or going back on its design choices or what all have you happens, it has to be taken into account that ultimately Paradox did a pretty considerable marketing push as far as V5. They seem to have put in substantial funding for that and including avenues that haven't previously existed for the gameline, including a "get popular internet tabletop people to do a liveplay, now that such things are how you sell your game", I don't really think they care too hard about the pre-existing fanbase at this point (unless fanbase...
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  • I have not been impressed with seeming supplement after supplement including "threaten the characters by their Touchstones" as ST advice, no, like the game itself can't think of any reason for them to exist beyond a punishment mechanism.



    If the game can't of itself invest you in one of its purportedly core ideas/emphases without dipping heavily into a well of negative reinforcement, it's not great....
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    Last edited by MarkK; 06-06-2022, 11:19 PM.

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MarkK
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