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  • Given her whole paragon of the road of humanity thing, no, I can't see her having condoned the Anarch Revolt as far as where it went. Possibly sympathized to a certain degree in its early days, but ultimately as it grew closer to the Sabbat it would ultimately become, decidedly not. And the violence of it in general would have put her off, sure.

    I do grant that if Julia could survive being a thorn in Hardestat and really the entirety of the Black Cross' side for the duration of the dark medieval era, she would have a solid shot of being enough of a survivor to make it out of the Revolt/Burning...
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  • It would have been tragic but definitely on point irony for VtM if Julia ended up being killed by the Anarchs, considering how hard she fought for her ideals as far as shared power between vamps.

    This is why I like to prefer to think she withdrew from the Jyhad to seek Golconda, yes *cough*

    I mean something certainly happens to her to take her out from the prominence she had in the vampiric world. She could have also been killed by the Inquisition. Again sad of course, given her championing of the road of humanity otherwise, but also something VtM likes to do.
    ...
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  • Your attempt to argue that such is what the Ventrue are requires ignoring that they are depicted with a varied range of attitudes and approaches. Your confusingly reductive attempt to now say that disagreeing with you means someone is arguing the Ventrue are heroic further underscores how you approach even being disagreed with. You continue to attempt to reduce both VtM and disagreeing with your opinions in ways that require ignoring both VtM and the actual contents of the posts disagreeing with you.

    It's saying the moon is green cheese because your response to noting "here are...
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    Last edited by MarkK; 09-17-2021, 01:21 PM.

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  • So they're exactly the same as every other clan in Vampire the Masquerade when they achieve power over other vampires? Of course, that's not quite fair, as both the Ventrue, and every other clan, will more often than not have the basic sense to understand that their rule needs to contain some kind of mix of both carrot and stick, but apparently we're not talking about actual VtM at this point.



    When your attempt at speaking in generalities ignores the actual makeup, significant details, distinctions and nuance of the clan you are speaking of, you are less speaking in...
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    Last edited by MarkK; 09-17-2021, 10:32 AM. Reason: The founders coterie feels like something there is varying in game junk on.

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  • While MyWifeIsScary is essentially the reverse of CTPhipps in idealizing the Ventrue past what the game material actually supports instead of denigrating the Ventrue past what the game material actually supports, there is a basic idea in his post that is correct just fine.

    Pre 5e the Camarilla Ventrue understood just fine that they had to share power to be capable of everything from advancing their own agendas, to simply surviving. That's the core concept of the Camarilla. A group of clans that came together and established a power sharing hierarchy in the name of enforcing the Masquerade...
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    Last edited by MarkK; 09-17-2021, 08:16 AM.

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  • The content of your posts to this point contradicts the idea of claiming that this is what you have been posting, from calling the Ventrue the worst of rulers, to saying they somehow squeezed the Lasombra and Tzimisce out of the Camarilla out of fear and jealousy that they would be rulers in it, as opposed to the reasons that the Lasombra and Tzimisce did not want to join the Camarilla (which again, where does the game say the Ventrue did that in an actual book for the game? I'm not asking rhetorically). Your posts read as though they distort the idea that there's been a bunch of work in the writing...
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    Last edited by MarkK; 09-17-2021, 02:20 AM.

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  • Julia Antasia, a Ventrue methuselah, headed up an entire in clan faction whose goal across the Dark Medieval was to try and restore the power sharing arrangement between clans of the Eternal Senate in terms of how she saw its potential. This was something of a Camarilla philosophical precursor in terms of the attitudes of "we should have a multi clan body." While a minority, they were sizable and powerful enough to make Hardestadt angry and leery of their influence, and ironically compared to the attitudes of, say, the more dominant at the time Black Cross Ventrue, their perspective...
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    Last edited by MarkK; 09-16-2021, 05:22 PM.

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  • The Brujah were considered to be a high clan in the Dark Medieval once the gameline decided that distinction existed in the Dark Ages Vampire line that was the successor to Vampire: the Dark Ages. They were literally featured in Player's Guide to the High Clans and described as a High Clan in the Dark Ages Vampire core rulebook. The main note that they had was that the clan was actively fighting to hold on to the distinction.

    DAV20 ultimately lightly retconned that whole setup and went with "while most vampires recognize the Ventrue and Lasombra as high clans, and Nosferatu as...
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    Last edited by MarkK; 09-14-2021, 07:37 PM.

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  • MarkK
    replied to Tzimisce Rule the Camarilla
    It's worth noting their own founder was actively encouraging/manipulating their destruction (or at least wide scale reduction) as far as factors that helped that along. Stuff happened like clan elders that had managed to initially survive the hunts feeling Saulot himself calling them somewhere, and then, you know, expected results.

    Which is to say, something else was happening, yeah....
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  • From the little preview blurb it looks like some of them are at the very least going to be different in terms of the descriptions of their beliefs....
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    Last edited by MarkK; 09-08-2021, 07:55 PM. Reason: typo

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  • They're cool, they're just flawed. Which is not a unique statement in VtM about anything really....
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  • It should be noted that the versions of those clans ruled their clans in such a way that helped the Anarch revolt happen. It wasn't just about childer being thrown to the Inquisition. For the Lasombra and Tzimisce it was as much about being infuriated with the way their leaders held power over them and the manner in which they had been using it for centuries.

    I mean, I think the Dark Ages Tzimisce are cool and interesting for their imagery, thematics and sense of drive. But their pride, fractiousness, internal jealousies and vendettas were rolling their clan along a path towards...
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  • That doesn't mean the Tremere are in a stronger place as a clan/political entity/magical entity. That means you personally like where the Tremere are as a clan....
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  • As far as Saulot's noted plan, wacky though it was, he'd already got what he wanted out of the Tremere really. His presumed death for a good long while, eliminating most of his previous clan without looking like he did it, and Tremere's body for whatever reason. The Tremere clan themselves were something of a bonus to do further Jyhad moves through when not wrestling with Tremere for control of said body.

    And again, for all that the Seven were an attack point on the Tremere, they were also a focal point the clan's magic could be coalesced around, in some cases literally. That they'd...
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    Last edited by MarkK; 09-08-2021, 11:20 AM.

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  • My problem with that is they've had a demonstrable power hit. One of the highest cards the Tremere could play in the Jyhad was their ability to bust out group ritual nonsense and to threaten that they could. It was pretty much their nuclear weapon as far as a "don't mess with that country past a point of no return, it has nuclear weapons" sort of deterrent to other clans. That sort of thing is really only viable for a strictly knit together clan with a strong hierarchy, which they no longer are.

    The other thing they've lost by fragmenting is the ability for magical knowledge...
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  • Okay, especially for this one after multiple posts noting content from Chicago by Night alone that doesn't agree with your take, you can replace the word Lasombra with Ventrue for the way you talk about the Lasombra clan and its unstoppable ultra competence and your posts are pretty much the mirror image of a different fellow's posts as far as interacting with the given book content.

    But all that aside?

    The idea that the Tremere, splintered across multiple houses and sects, no longer able to do things like full clan involved pyramid rituals that they once could, and having...
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  • I'm not saying it doesn't make sense to go after her, I'm just saying it came off as comparatively vague that it actually happened outside of rumour compared to a Cardinal explicitly described as burning to ash after losing a fight with Talley and getting staked, and Carolina Valez writing her own death note under Talley's gaze, as it were.
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  • The book itself doesn't really present itself as supporting either your take or the one you're replying to....
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  • Right, I've seen that, but "word is" isn't exactly concrete, particularly when like I said, there's also developer talk that the Sabbat cover vampire is Lucita. He has more explicit kills of Sabbat elders/leaders in that book is my note.

    Otherwise, the stupidity of Talley's loyalty to his clan notwithstanding, the Camarilla Lasombra having to give him up is a significant ding to their operational capacity. But that's kind of the point. They're having to make significant sacrifices, not convenient sacrifices.

    As far as Vitel reaching into the Camarilla/the Camarilla...
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  • Betraying Vitel wouldn't get Talley gone at by the Camarilla Lasombra who Vitel has no power over and is separate from, would be the thing.

    I think ultimately it boils down to Talley is the arguably best way the would be Camarilla Lasombra can show they're genuinely serious about all this, even if said best way is a terrible, terrible choice. So terrible. I mean even aside from the loss of a basically irreplaceable operative level of things, yeah, Lasombra trying to claim his unlife are in for a ride.

    So if I was going to pick the most logical feeling reasons, it's the...
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MarkK
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