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  • Sabbat
    - Priests are to ensure their Packs undergo a monthly vaulderie, at the very least.
    - The Ductus of each Pack is to submit a report or meet with a representative of the Archbishop monthly to maintain records of general goings on (Camarilla movements, losses, embraces, events of interest.
    - Confirmed reports of Lupines are to be met with a reward, as such can be used for the event of Dogtagging. The skin of confirmed Lupines will be met with a less reward.
    - Retaliation for reports of infernalism are to be met with harshly, for it is the right of all members of the...
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  • Monalfie
    replied to Detecting Kinfolk
    I've noted it before, but Supernatural is a problematic term in cWoD. I've never been able to find a very set definiteon at the end of the day. For me, though, the major splat templates (Mage, Werewolf, Vampire, etc) and some related creatures (golems, spirits, etc.) are what it means. I really don't think Kinfolk would be considered supernatural themselves.

    The reason I don't think this argument holds up is the wording of the merit itself.
    "Not actually intended for mortals, this merit is necessary for vampire, wraith, mage and changeling characters who are Kin as well."...
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    Last edited by Monalfie; Today, 09:08 AM.

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  • Monalfie
    replied to I don't get the Sabbat
    Sure, I would say some Sabbat have very wide reaching influence. Because, again, many Sabbat do stay behind the scenes. There's a reason neither the Sabbat or Camarilla have defeated each other in centuries.
    To each their own. If your players aren't into that, it isn't useful. As I said, that's true of almost every aspect of VtM lore, though. I just object to the idea of putting them in too much of a box. There are rampaging shovelheads, manipulative bishops, inhumane Tzimisce, disaffected Tremere, zealous Ventrue knight inquisitors. You'll find a gambit of people in the Sabbat whose inclusion...
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  • Monalfie
    replied to Detecting Kinfolk
    It really depends if a kinfolk is considered a supernatural in and of itself. A lot of those minor groups can get weird.
    The Combination Discipline Blood Sight might be able to reveal it. As others noted, maybe Auspex 2. And Biothaumaturgy 1.

    Then you just have the 'old fashion way'. Plying blood bonds, Presence, Dominate, torture to have them talk about it. Maybe someone with Path of Spirit Manipulation could get a spirit to point out a kinfolk they know. The Abyss Mysticism ritual Commune with the Abyss could let you find some.

    For Mages? I know jack all about...
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  • Monalfie
    replied to I don't get the Sabbat
    It seems very awkward to describe Boko Haram as a noisy gang.

    What do you mean by powerless? What are you defining as power? As where I stand, a group like a Mexican drug cartel definitely has power (money, influence, weapons, territory, people willing to kill). What metric of power are you using here?

    I really have to agree with most everything Heavy Arms is getting at about the Sabbat here. There are rampaging Cainites and scheming manipulators in the Sabbat. And the role they play in a game can be varied. You could always run a game without them, but that's true of...
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  • You aren't saying anything about it compared to other disciplines. The other poster was. That it is unfair to treat Thaumaturgy as the only problematic element because of other ones....
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  • The point isn't really how you are using broken, but the other posters. Vamps Like Us said he thinks it is broken. Stanlemon agreed with the term broken, just that it is far from the only broken one. And implying Vamps Like Us was possibly a hypocrite in how he treated Thaumaturgy compared to those other broken disciplines.

    So again, it is Whataboutism, a fallacious appeal to hypocrisy. Whether or not Vamps Like Us treats the situation hypocritically doesn't change the underlying premise he's making about how prohibitively broken Thaumaturgy is. He very well might be a hypocrite,...
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  • Well, we never disagreed on that point. I was disagreeing with the repeated ad hominem claims you were making about the people disagreeing with you.
    The problem is that the accusation of hypocrisy doesn't do anything to address the argument. If Thaumaturgy is broken, it is broken. Whether or not other disciplines are broken don't really change that. Being a hypocrite doesn't change that either. That's why it is a fallacy. You can make some valid accusations of hypocrisy, but it isn't relevant in this argument.
    V20 Lore of the Clans page 259 has a section on topic in regards to changing...
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  • Now this would be whataboutism....
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  • Which doesn't make them power gamers or that they love Tremere. They just disagree with you. Whatever works at your table works, I don't truly care how you conduct your games. But I take issue with the statements implying those who disagree with your method are the above.
    That said, most of them (Stanelmon, Theodrim, and Beckett at least at a glance) have just disagreed to the extent they think it is broken and how to deal with those issues.

    Which, again, doesn't equate to being a power gamer or loving Tremere. You just throw out Thaumaturgy. They think it is better to use...
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  • A very odd description of people who are disagreeing with you. You keep throwing out these awkward statements about those saying Thaumaturgy as written isn't that bad (especially if given certain in-game oversight) as 'just loving Tremere' and are now apparently power gamers. What works for you works for you, baby. But people can talk about it without such motives.

    And I only really note this because you've said or implied it several times now....
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    Last edited by Monalfie; 06-13-2018, 12:02 PM.

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  • The difference between two and eight seem a little vague. But otherwise no, I like it. Seems legit....
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  • I gotcha. I guess the issue I'm running into looking at these sins is that they don't necessarily feel like they fit the ethos of the path. So, embracing is a level one on Samsara because you're messing with someone's destiny ( or purpose, I forget) and giving them a new one. Hence why the level one, three, and seven feel out of place.

    If Destiny is what matters, that would be all that matters. Whereas if they want Humanity, they can use that. I find the idea of merging these odd. Part of going on a Path is moving to a new mindset more-so than necessarily melding the old.
    ...
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  • I'm curious why the need to abandon Humanity, but also keep several core tenants of Humanity anyway? (utter perversion/heinous acts and killing). Just seems like Humanity-lite with the ability to beat people up without feeling bad, no offense.
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  • How so? That seems pretty precisely the sort of comment Nyrufa was hitting on....
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  • I'll try to rephase, since you didn't quote the part I was really trying to hit on. Nyrufa was saying 'what about other disciplines' because he (again, seemingly incorrectly) thought Vamps Like Us had issue with vampires 'doing magic' and that all disciplines are seemingly magic. It wasn't a mechanical comment. In which case it seems entirely valid to question the consistency of his opinion.
    If I said, 'I don't like apples because I don't like fruit, so I don't eat it or keep it in my house.' It would seem valid to counter with, 'but what about all those oranges, bananas, and strawberries...
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    Last edited by Monalfie; 06-11-2018, 07:15 PM.

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  • Except logic was given, that part of why they disliked Tremere (or why they think others do) is because of the broken nature of Thaumaturgy. Someone doesn't have to defend taste, but it seems valid to question justifications.

    That said, their point about necromancy was more about misunderstanding the complaint. Which they seemed to think was, 'I don't like Thaumaturgy because it is magic' when all disciplines basically are magic....
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  • Monalfie
    replied to I don't get the Sabbat
    I can only guess at some aspects of why they were added, though I know why I like their inclusion as a group.

    The way I view it is that they should be viewed like the Camarilla, as a reactionary movement to the Anarch Revolt. Some were content resolving the issues the Inquisition was causing by furthering the Masquerade, forming new hierarchies, and largely espousing Humanity as the proper way of safeguarding their kind. And even many Anarches were able to accept this in the face of war. Whereas some (being largely the Tzimisce and Lasombra) were more-so devoted to their superiority,...
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  • Source on that? Specifically that someone faking a drink would qualify as the ritual being enacted improperly to the consequence of failure.
    negZero Given that it requires a combination discipline to achieve a flap that can be turned on/off, it seems more-so convoluted since they would have to have a Tzimisce fleschcraft and un-fleshcraft the thing each time they wanted to feed....
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  • Monalfie
    replied to Setites and Blood Magick
    You just pay for it Out of Clan, yeah. As was noted, only the Dark Ages Witches of Echidna had it in clan and they went extinct.
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Monalfie
Monalfie
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