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  • Monalfie
    replied to Diablerie and Antediluvians
    I think it is possible, given nothing says it is impossible. But as was noted, Antediluvians fall far into the area of plot material than well structured rules. And I would think truly doing, or learning how to do so would be a game in and of itself.
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  • Ultimately what Heightened Senses can influence depends on the ST. I think I would say no. I'm not really sure Aura Perception is, in any way, utilizing a mundane sense. No, Auspex doesn't clarify the sense in question need be mundane. But I think it fits better than allowing it to heighten an activity already only possible from the discipline itself.
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  • Why? Caitiffs can still learn Necromancy and/or be useful....
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  • Revised version had audio as well. See no reason not to allow it.
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  • Monalfie
    replied to Abyss Mysticism Question
    Well, there are several things to take into account.
    - Assumedly any power given is intended for either use by the Storyteller or players.
    - Assumedly a power is given mechanics so that it has a fair expectation on how it is enacted and affects others.
    The power is an issue because, if it is intended for use, poorly written mechanics are a negative impact on the game. Now it might not be a significant issue, given the rarity. But it is still an issue. It is a bit off-topic from the OP. But, given the discussion shifted to the capabilities of Abyss Mystics, it seems a reasonable...
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  • I was just quoting from V20 Pages 138 and 139 for Auspex 5, Psychic Projection....
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  • http://reference.l2fury.com/index.php/Umbral_Walk
    Was too lazy to link before. It is, indeed, in Clanbook Tremere.
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  • Very thematic, agreed....
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  • I think the most likely Kindred to be aware of the Umbra are probably going to be normal Tremere with an interest in it. So thus, Spirit Manipulation users or possibly Elemental Mastery users. Then, following that, as was mentioned, Kolduns and groups like Telyavelic Tremere who use more spiritual magic. And, yes, those with high levels of Auspex might be able to become aware of such things as well.

    monteparnas Psychic Possession uses the term 'astral plane'. Though, it is rather vague on the matter. It more often just says spirit realm. It later references it as

    ...
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  • I would say no. Nothing about Movement of the Mind indicates one would add Potence to their lifting ability. Furthermore, the entire weight list is given without consideration for one's actual strength.

    In regards to Potence applying to Arms of the Abyss, it is also worth noting that Arms of the Abyss explicitly states that Potence and Celerity to them. Whereas Movement of the Mind does not. While we can speculate why this might be, the fact that Arms of the Abyss does include it does not in any way imply it should also happen with Movement of the Mind where the text doesn't mention...
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  • There are a couple Thaumaturgy rituals (might just be in Revised) that also allowed a Kindred to travel to the Umbra proper....
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  • Then we'll have to agree to disagree that this group of Kindred, who have some knowledge of Garou, with 4-5 Occult, and several centuries of studying supernatural creatures somehow don't know about Abominations. I do agree Occult is usually based around the type of being, but these are certainly specialists and Abominations are in the wheelhouse of Kindred. Given they are literally Vampire Werewolves that need to be embraced.

    Either way, if you're of the opinion they could know about, I don't have a big contention. As I said before, my main contention was this supposed implication...
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  • Aleph I appreciate the elaboration. I know it was something like that. I need to recheck the Black Hand book, but I do recall the blood fast thing.

    Because that's literally what you specifically were referencing... Either way, the only major issue I took is that you extrapolated 'it is very hard to ghoul/blood bond/embrace Werewolves' to somehow equate to 'they know they can't do it'. Which are two different things.

    The OP already mentioned the group knows about Garou, have high occult, and several centuries of studying supernatural beings. So I really do think they...
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    Last edited by Monalfie; 11-03-2017, 02:02 PM.

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  • Though, what you quoted does not say they cannot blood bound or embraced. The first point being that most are allergic, not all. And sometimes the embrace does damage to work, thus actual Abominations occurring.

    It looks like that book might be outdated in other ways, though. Given that it says 'mages can be ghouled normally' and I think it actually causes issues with their magic without specific interference....
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    Last edited by Monalfie; 11-03-2017, 09:06 AM.

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  • Except the reflection isn't there just like a Lasombra. As you say, the Lasombra's reflection is due to supernatural interference, not plain line of sight issues. As I noted above, how one could see the clock could vary that isn't necessarily the same as creating a precise reflection wholesale.

    Unless, as I presented, one considers it might interact with existing objects and said discrepancies in different ways. Such as, as I and Nosimpleway considered, smoothing the lines of perceptions so the clock discrepancy merely is overlooked to a degree by an observer. Perhaps it utilizes...
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  • Monalfie
    replied to Abyss Mysticism Question
    Sure. And don't get me wrong, the text does also outline that learning Abyss Mysticism is, in and of itself, a difficult task. Just found it an interesting concept of being able to still develop it as an extension of Obtenebration besides requiring a teacher. That there aren't, as given, actual constraints allowing a neutral or even good Abyss Mystic. Because, without a teacher, it can be developed without a super secret evil society guiding one....
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  • Monalfie
    replied to Abyss Mysticism Question
    Sure, that's what I figured. I was just surprised reading the Tome of Secrets and Lore of the Clans that outlined it was developed just by study of the Abyss. It gave XP details, but no need listed for a teacher.

    BenjCano I think prior descriptions indicate several Lasombra helped develop it, not necessarily Lasombra himself first? That's how Lore of the Clans implied it. But let me know if I'm wrong on that.

    Sultanabdal The issue is that you are, as before, needlessly unfair in seeing both sides. The discussion is hardly 'either have a grim, atmospheric game or have...
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  • Can you make jewelry or a costume, per V20? I just see a lot of reference to face and specific physical features.

    In regards to the clock hypothetical, I'm not sure I would call that 'something that isn't there.' The clock still exists in said room. I don't think you would claim (I could be wrong) that a Kindred is capable of creating an entirely non-existent clock as well in the wall's reflection. How one is seeing the clock can vary. Is it a mental impression from glancing at it previously, or perhaps Obfuscate as a power able to compensate for knowing something is behind it in...
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  • Yet, there is nothing being perceived to change. There is no reflection to alter. I see your point, though. Given the unclear nature, it might be more consistent to just allow it with more successes....
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  • Monalfie
    replied to Abyss Mysticism Question
    Question - Does someone with Obtenebration need a teacher to learn Abyss Mysticism or can they develop through study on their own? Sounds like they can just study the Abyss and figure it out from Lore of the Clans.
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Monalfie
Monalfie
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