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  • I still don't see where any interpretation is in the matter. The books allegedly claim that Garou are possibly irreligious . . . while the books blatantly and explicitly describe how Garou regularly deal with various deities when conducting rituals, learning gifts, or making that knife stop working as a knife.

    Of course. These are gods after all. If they weren't gods, we could talk about it not being religion (but not all religions include gods - for instance, there are variants of Buddhism that are atheistic; I'm thinking there may be other godless religions).
    ...
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  • Could you please rephrase your reply? Because I don't quite understand what you mean by 'tack on' in this context. Werewolves deal with deities all the time, such as learning Gifts from spider-spirits, or scaring a spirit of sharpness out of a knife to make it behave as if blunt. That makes them religious animists at a minimum. There's no tacking on involved because religion is already all-permeating in the Werewolf game line. To remove religion from Werewolf is to remove 80%-95% of what Werewolf is about: no Gifts, no Umbra, no spirits, no rituals, no Apocalypse, no struggle. It's not a topic...
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  • Existence independently of belief is mostly orthogonal to religion.
    Taking Moses' word as true, Moses saw proof of YHWH existing independently of his belief; does that make Moses irreligious or unfaithful? No, because otherwise you're forced to discard lots and lots of key figures in religions as irreligious/unfaithful.
    Conversely, I have faith that what my senses tell me about the existence of an outside world to be somewhat true. If I had no faith in that, I would be a solipsist. But again, that does not make me religious about, say, my ability to see this keyboard I'm typing with....
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    Last edited by vicky_molokh; 09-22-2017, 10:40 AM.

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  • That . . . sort of plays into a very Euro kind of No True Scotsman against other types of religions.
    It sort of reminds me how to an east-derived culture person, Kappa are water deities, but I've seen euro-derived-culture people saying that they "don't count" as 'true' deities and thus believing in Kappa does not make one religious.

    I'm pointing it out because Werewolf is supposed to be more international and tribal, so such a 'Western' form of NTSing looks very out of place and contrary the aforementioned aspect of the game line....
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    Last edited by vicky_molokh; 09-21-2017, 06:02 AM.

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  • Not all worship is about faith-veneration. A lot of religious (e.g. Chinese folk religion[s]) treat 'just business' relationships with deities as a normal thing. To think otherwise sounds like leaning towards a mix of Abrahamo- and post-antiquity-Eurocentrism (not the best term, I know, but hopefully it's good enough to make the point across)....
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  • It's more that I see Shadowrun and VtM as the same type of games on the pessimism/optimism spectrum in addition to both touching upon mature themes, and I wanted to emphasize that mature themes don't have to come with a grimdark/pessimistic/cynical (in the modern sense of the word) approach to them. (Incidentally, they also seem to both happen to carry a trenchcoats & katanas visual æsthetic, but that's a different matter.) This is why I brought up MASH as a counterexample....
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  • There's a difference between which topics are dealt with and how they are handled. To put up a contrast to your example, MASH dealt with mature topics such as war (and not of the glorious kind!), bigotry, corruption, greed, sexuality, greed, psychological trauma, and what overall many would call 'living hell' . . . but in contrast to Shadowrun or Game of Thrones, it had a hopeful attitude. It humanized those involved, whether friend and enemy, and reminded that while it's hard and unreliable, change for the better can be made. By contrast, Shadowrun and WoD tackle topics that aren't exactly new,...
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  • This sounds like at least partially conflating dark/pessimistic/cynical(in the modern sense of the word) with mature....
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  • vicky_molokh
    replied to Specialization doubt
    Adding successes to attacks does contribute to lethality, and, more disappointingly, to the usefulness of Dex compared to Str (since adding a Dex die not only improves your chance to hit, but also adds half a damage die on average).
    Due to the way difficulties interact with success-damage-adding, called shots can sometimes end up being less useful than non-called shots in terms of damage. This seems to be more prominent for the more difficult called shots whose primary purpose is doing more damage, such as head or heart (and I don't mean for the purposes of staking).
    It's a bit hard...
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  • vicky_molokh
    replied to Specialization doubt
    That's a question of art-oriented vs. sports-oriented vs. lethal combat-oriented training, and is mostly (mostly!) orthogonal to what types of manoeuvres a style teaches.

    Also, when talking about how imba a specialty is, consider that at best it provides an about +10% improvement (reroll about 10% of dice), which is a whopping +1 die-equivalent for someone with a dice pool of ten. 'At best' because you probably still run into less than 100% situations where you can use your spec....
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    Last edited by vicky_molokh; 08-26-2017, 12:52 PM.

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vicky_molokh
vicky_molokh
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Last Activity: Today, 07:09 PM
Joined: 10-31-2016
Location: Kyïv, Ukraine
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