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  • Isator Levi
    replied to Exalted: Essence
    You know, the key thing to understand about a product such as this is that not everybody is its audience. And there's nothing... noteworthy, at all, about not being part of its audience.

    Some people will do far better with the game as it is, some will find this the actual means of getting into it at all.

    Heh, back in the day I think the New World of Darkness managed to put out something like three books like this in the core line alone.

    Anyway, I don't think it's necessary for anybody who is not part of the intended audience to be hostile about the thing...
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  • Well not the first line of them.

    {checks again} Or the fourth....
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  • Holden was developer for The Broken-Winged Crane. Holden wrote Triumphant Howl of the Devil Tiger. And in Return of the Scarlet Empress; the first forum posts I ever read of him were him ardently defending that book.

    I'm pretty sure this comment on the subject is something that he wrote within weeks of Manual: Infernals coming out.



    This would be the exact reason why he writes it as something that can only ever happen quickly, because otherwise it can't happen at all.

    I mean, your arguments up until now have alternated between "the rise...
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  • This is still just a storyline that is kept in an indefinite holding pattern, just with additional steps. It does not sit comfortably alongside plot hooks that it is permissible to move forwards unchecked.

    If the Reclamation is something that needs to be referred to as being constantly kept in check, that acknowledges and validates the fact that it can't be portrayed as something that can go forwards on its own. So what's the value of even including it?

    I also think it's weird to phrase the Reclamation as trying to have its cake and eat it too when saying that it consists...
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  • You know, I've never really read... any Storytelling chapter, least of all that of Infernals, very closely, but I wonder if even that actually says some of this stuff outright given the reports I've heard about the dissonance between it and the first two chapters.

    For the time being, it's a sentiment that I know was expressed by Holden and I think sometimes by Michael Goodwin while elaborating on the book in forum discussions. This would be an account of one such elaboration in which one of the pertinent lines appears.


    There's other stuff talking about a whole...
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  • Some of those have more credibility as things that can move on without the intervention of players and the world still spins.

    It has been said by many people before that one of the strengths of the setting of Exalted has been writing the locations as though they're in a period of transition even without the intervention of players, in contrast to games where everything is static and stable until the plot of a specific game happens. It gives the setting a greater feeling of life, it creates dynamic hooks for players to engage with in the form of hijacking or derailing those already...
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  • This would be at odds with the writers of Manual: Infernals having frequently reiterated that the Yozis desperately require the Reclamation to happen as soon as possible before things like the Green Sun Princes recognising that they're better off without it or Heaven catching on and taking steps to hard counter it.

    If there are any deeper implications to short Infernal lifespans it would seem to me an intention that they not be around long to share in the spoils....
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  • Isator Levi
    replied to Exalted: Essence
    There's clearly already a market for something like this, the number of people that have done things like try to develop FATE hacks, and as I said elsewhere I know so many people who find complexity a barrier to entry. This could open the game up considerably, with a nice professional job of it.
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  • That would be covered under my point about having latitude to play them like historical figures who were kind of bad. What, Lyta wants to burn Dragon Blooded to honour the Unconquered Sun? Okay, err, Henry VIII reintroduced boiling men alive to punish somebody who poisoned a bunch of bishops, and I think it was a standard method of execution employed by Mongol leaders before united by the Genghis. Havesh is just a street punk who has risen to the status of taking contracts out on the lives of the rich assholes who stood at the top of the system that uses to make his life hell, and gratifies himself...
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  • I feel this is reductive of the things that I said there.

    I'm going to ask a question which is... probably kind of unanswerable, but I hope will get across my reasoning:

    If nobody had ever made a comparison to late First Age Solars or used the term decadence out loud but they were on the mind of a writer who put together something like that idea of Presence Charm for a flaming brass throne to rise to meet you as you sat on nothing as the form of some social action, would the Charm seem out of place or unsuitable as Infernal magic?...
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  • Well, the Unconquered Sun isn't the most important basis for the guiding aesthetic of Solar Exalted, legendary and literary human heroes are. God-King's Shrike is just a way of rendering being Jonah warning Ninevah of divinely ordained destruction for its sin (wherein the Solar also manages to function as the divinity who so ordains). The Ability and the convolutions of adhering to that narrative are the only way Solars could get such large-scale destruction from their own power.

    Dual Magus Prana isn't even a thing in character, it's a dramatic device for saying that somebody who...
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  • Isator Levi
    replied to Ask a question, get an answer
    Well, strictly speaking we're not told the nature of the Primordial in question. Most people seem to have read that line as meaning that its nature became one of conflict, but I'm inclined to think it would have been something that distilled its nature into one with applications strictly for conflict.

    {checks again} Not even that, actually. "All elements unsuited for conflict" can be read as removing everything that was a liability rather than only keeping stuff that could be for conflict.

    I think it would be interesting to imagine it as a Primordial that was...
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  • My perspective is that the Solars at the time of the Usurpation are much like the world at that time: it took thousands of years to build that shit up on the first go around, I find it dubious to expect characters to replicate very much of it in a tenth of a percent of the time.

    Now obviously, people can ultimately play characters in whatever manner that they wish. I have often found it... curious how many roleplayers have reported being super eager to devise performances of the most elaborate and gratuitous cruelties they can imagine in pursuit of emulating what they imagine those...
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  • I like the idea of Infernal Exalted treating one another as a peer group that they'll regularly get together and compare notes with as a reflection of how there are so few of them and they might kind of seek to relate to one another in ways they won't with anybody else, and as emerging partly from Yozi schemes around them taking the form of inducting them into Hell's gentry.

    That and I think it's fun to add more models of how types of Exalted interact with one another and another thing to distinguish them from the Solars....
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  • Hmm... looking at this more closely, any lingering differences appear to amount to slight variations that there's no need to argue about, other than suggesting that some of the Charms could lean even more into this take on them.

    I want to talk a bit about the idea of becoming a Yozi (and because I burnt one of my typing fingers, I have an incentive to keep it brief and focused). Your conversation with DrLoveMonkey seemed to me to say that the kind of thing you'd be looking for would still be very elaborate and require a fair bit of homebrew. And that would probably just be on its...
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  • I have hang ups around offering apologies that I fear are insincere from myself, or will be read as such. Having one directly requested alleviates this a bit.

    I am sorry for having let myself feel this too much as a fight I wanted to thrill in and indulging myself in trying to devise digs at people. I don't want it for the remainder of this discussion, and shall endeavour to keep this development at the front of my mind.

    I've got ideas of responses to your responses to me, but they'll need more of my attention, I'll get back to them....
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  • Honestly, I think the parts of those Heresy Charms that had actual mechanical foundation is the kind of thing that there could be a strong basis for just doing from the outset without needing to jump through some hoops to access it.

    I mean, not the stuff about reconstructing your Caste, I think that's a bit unnecessary anyway when they're just normal Castes rather than tying you in obligations to one specific section of the Charms.

    But well, Solars, Lunars and Dragon Blooded have very specific conceptual imagery that their Charms have to adhere to, Abyssals
    ...
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  • Hmmm...

    The suggestion of differences between branches of Charms being subtle actually does surprise me. One thing that I've started thinking in this discussion is that there are people who presume that "Yozi inspired" Ability Charms would be or are wanted to be ones that would be visually indistinguishable from Solar Charms (and a good number of Lunar Charms) even if how they play out mechanically would be quite different.

    I personally do not want them to be so indistinguishable. I do not think that differences between branches should just be in the underlying...
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    Last edited by Isator Levi; 12-04-2019, 07:55 AM.

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  • I did try to shift gears. The question about why the proof of concept Charms in the Kickstarter preview did not cover the point really was an attempt to discern what would not or could not be captured in a new version.

    And the response to that was an assertion that the Charms would not even do what they said they would on the grounds of perceived failings of the rest of the line that were of dubious accuracy or fairness. Focused around a line of criticism of presumed errors of the future that actually accurately describe the past, in a way that seemed to have been forgotten.
    ...
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  • Something about this sentiment didn't quite sit right with me, and it's taken me a moment to put my finger on it.

    This thing you're complaining about? This doom you're proclaiming for the Green Sun Princes of Third Edition?

    This is how they functioned in Second Edition. This is how their design was intended to function there. Michael Goodwin designed each of the Yozi sets with large holes that could only be filled by other Yozis!

    You want to complain about Infernals that don't support alternative play styles, you start with that guy.

    If your...
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    Last edited by Isator Levi; 12-03-2019, 11:46 PM.

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Isator Levi
Isator Levi
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