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  • Then, from the metaphysical side...yes this changes a lot. You're probably better doing as Enginseer said and scraping the "subjective reality" thing.

    This usually works on the grounds that science it's undistinguishable from magic (as was stated before, "humans are mages and shape reality with their belief"), but there needs to be a very big difference between magick and science in order for mages to be unable to choose science as their Paradigm...you may not need to scrape ALL of Paradigm mechanics, but at the very least we're faced with a mage in wich belief...
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  • Primal Flame :

    Now, there's one question than I have to make:

    When you say that you don't want a world with Technocracy...you mean a world without Technocracy: the secret society that controls science?...or a world without Technomancers? Because these are two very different beasts.

    If it's the first, then what impedes/impeded another group of Technomancers to take the mantle of science?. One has to think the reasons behind this lack of science-pushers among mages even without Big Brother.

    If it's the second, then you will have to change the rules...
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  • Exactly, I agree 100% with Ramnesis

    All humans are mages and thus can shape reality with effort and will. It's just that some are slower than others, and some are more conscious than others of this process (and, thus, can manipulate the process).

    Wise mages have discovered arround the modern era that reality it's consensual, and thus that they can shape it at a very largue scale by social manipulation. BUT, in the end, social manipulation it's just pushing people where you want it to go. Now you need to ask yourself if the process that made a lot (but not all) people...
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    Last edited by Aleph; 06-23-2017, 09:21 PM.

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  • I assume you believe every inventor of ancient civilizations, including roman architects whose works were admired by the man of the Renaissance, was Awakened



    I recomend to do this. You don't need to ignore any of the methapysics, just part of the metaplot that it's more ego boost for mages and their place in the world than anything else....
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  • Aleph
    replied to Mayo vs Mustard
    I always felt that the "apocalypse" for Mage was somewhat forced. Mage hadn't this big prophecy about the End being near and unavoidable, no Gehena, no Apocalypse, nobody believed Mass Ascencion was something doable in a near future, and until late 2nd and Revised the issue it's never given importance. Ascencion had to happen to wrapp the cWoD metaplot, but not because it was important for the metaplot of Mage itself.
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  • I like the idea of Ravnos being community leeches, however I think we need to engineer it in a way that forces Ravnos to wander a little. To make them more akin to nomadic people. Otherwise they will want to force their people to stay in one place that they can control (to keep them safe). Perhaps the traveling type it's necessary instead of an option, this is vague enough that clergy that makes frequent peregrinaje may enter, also rom, and some merchants. The Ravnos themselves may not need to travel, but they could desire to do so as a way to take care off their herd.

    The "powerbase"...
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    Last edited by Aleph; 06-23-2017, 02:11 PM.

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  • Either Hermetic or Messianic.

    Hermetics were weakened after the 1rst Massa War, If the Messianics (that, btw, included the Gabrielites, that would be part of the strong arm of the OoR) had put their game together and took control of the growing influence of the church, they could have upset the balance of power and nowdays mages could be hidding from the Theocracy

    Also, powder wouldn't have been invented and weaponized in Europe so early (it's explicitly stated that Craftmasons pushed this) and trade would suffer a set back without the High Guild and the explorers...
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    Last edited by Aleph; 06-23-2017, 11:47 AM.

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  • I don't get what this has to do with being mortal. Allowing to regain blood with eating makes sense to me because mortals regain lost blood with feeding and recovering. Sex doesn't allow mortals to create blood.
    I, too, thinkin that the Discipline should have a 5th level because any vampire can learn it (and, sooner or latter, by diablere or teaching, a 13- gen it's going to want to get it to 5). However, because this discipline it's about reducing the power of the blood to enjoy the advantages of mortality, "powerful" levels are purposely being denied (it's a Discipline by thin bloods,...
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    Last edited by Aleph; 06-23-2017, 11:18 AM.

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  • No, it's not. My problem comes when acting like a carebear it's a valid strategy to destroy the world. As long as that doesn't happen we're ok.

    I want to elaborate on how I think mages think:

    I can see some NWO thinking that way, because they're the ones changing history books with the belief that this changes the past, or at least the relationship betwen the past and the present.

    But I can't see most Technocrats thinking like that. Among other things because climate change generated a whole new brand of technological development. Nowdays green industry it's...
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    Last edited by Aleph; 06-22-2017, 10:08 AM.

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  • I see. Then I misinterpreted your post.

    I think that's a cool way to make it. If at least some parts of the Technocracy weren't subjective, the Antrophic Paradigm would have no place and the Syndicate agent's won't have excuse to shut down an experiment on the grounds of it being too Utopical. But, at the same time, believing that there are objective foundations justifies Technocrats researching and believing in their discoveries.

    Really, I don't think most Traditionalists believe in an entirely subjective reality either. I mean, try to tell the average Chorister that...
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  • XD

    FINALLY, a valid reason to make Technocracy to be Trump supporters

    Too bad that no mage truly believe that reality it's subjective...they will insist in solving it with their Instruments.
    I can see your points, and I admit that having Nephandi preaching about the danger of climate change it's weird as shit

    However, I have to say, I find weird you believe that the Technocracy doesn't think that reality is Consensual. If anything, I believe the Technocracy it's more dependant of a Consensual Reality than the Traditions are. After all, they're the...
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  • I don't see why not...unless the angels loyal to God made sure that such memories perished with the structure (something entirely under the power of the Host)-still, even when such an action does make sense, some fortresses survived the ire of the host in the material realm, maybe some were destroyed, but survived in the shadowlad for similar reasons

    This place would be OLD, and almost surely in the Tempest, I think (just like Enoch).
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  • Speaking as a student of philosophy, I don't usually defend subjective reality in real life, but your arguments left me unconvinced that such a reality would be inherently immoral (or less moral than an objective one).

    Even if the concept was inherently immoral, we're talking about the World of Darkness. Reality being a douchebag doesn't detract from the theme....
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    Last edited by Aleph; 06-21-2017, 03:02 PM.

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  • NicoTheDuck

    I theorized a Consensus outside time because I needed to explain human origin in a Reality that's Consensual. If reality it's made by human mind, then where did human come from?. My answer would be: Human (or rather, human belief) has a way to transcend time, and created the conditions for human to appear "naturaly". Replace human belief with spirit belief if they have a say too (wich they have, in their Umbral Realms).

    What would be your argument for the Consensus living inside (and thus being subject to) Time?
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  • I agree with that notion.

    I was trying to point, for my theory of a consensus out of time + multiverse (that assumes that it exists outside of time), that the Consensus beliefs are compossed with the beliefs that can be found in all of time.

    If a Mage with Mind 10/Time 10 would manage to feel the beliefs of every relevant being across all time and space, including alternate timelines, he would have an idea of what beliefs are held more across all timelines, who are more localized, and what beliefs are rarer. The things most commonly believed across all timelines would...
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    Last edited by Aleph; 06-21-2017, 02:49 PM.

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  • XDXDXDXD

    I can totally imagine a new age Traditionalist arguing against Technocratic paradigmatical domination with this exact argument.

    But no, I disagree, there's no way Subjective Reality necessarily helps all those nasty stuff. For several reasons:

    1ยบ Reality Zones. Ghettos ain't usually frecuented by the oligarchy, and thus in places where those "minories" live they would be majoritary, and thus control the local Consensus. A Reality Zone can be as small as a house, or even a room, thus, for those people that have strong self-determination...
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    Last edited by Aleph; 06-21-2017, 02:16 PM.

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  • Aleph
    replied to Mayo vs Mustard
    You may like Reality Zones. They allow you to have real gains for your effort in the war for reality, making it much less pointless.
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  • Erm...the One and the Pure Ones (Mage-from the very first edition and never leaved) would like to disagree with you....
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  • Maybe that butterfly you stepped upon was the sight that would give hope to someone that was going to suicide. If that someone commited suicide, it would prevent the born of a boy that would Awaken, Master the Time Sphere, and go to the past, where he would make the Nazi win the War. And so, because you wanted to eat pizza, we now live in Naziland (as happens in so many timelines)...I imagine that this it's what Time Masters tell other mages to convince them where to eat.

    From the PoV of my theory, however, I've thought about that dilema. I think there's a solution, if we use multiverse...
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    Last edited by Aleph; 06-21-2017, 12:20 PM.

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  • Yeah, to toss your avatar into an object you need Spirit for sure. In the Lich rote you create your Phylactery with Spirit 3-this is weird, I would think the level should be 4, at the very least, the level needed to create Fetishes.

    However, if you purchased the -7 points defect, then you already have your Avatar shoved into a Phylactery, and thus you shouldn't need Spirit at all.
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Aleph
Aleph
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