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  • Full agreement here. Of course, even better if you have both Atavisms. As a matter of fact, this is the only strategy to resolve the Slumbering condition that I do not deem borderline suicidal, or so costly the benefits of Slumbering are absolutely not worth it. Other reasons I avoid Slumbering most of the time is using it too much negates the whole point of playing a Beast and I find the requirements of high-Satiety feeding too burdensome in most circumstances. But I'm not going to deny that once in a great while, 'going mortal' might be useful and valuable for some of the reasons you previously...
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  • I did not find any specific rules statement on the issue either, but my resoning would be that all Hero Tracking and Gift abilities that are explictly based on having a Beast as a Target, or the Beast character having recently used their supernatural powers, are denied by the Slumbering Condition. On the other hand, if Hero Gifts just enhance the Hero's own skills, or target something else, such as the Beast's Lair, they remain just as effective. So many Hero powers are indeed denied, but if the Hero tracked down the slumbering Beast by mundane means, or using their tracking powers before the...
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  • This, I suppose, is one of the roots of our dissent. You care to enhance and empower the status of the Guilds in the setting so much that you are willing to marginalize PC opportunities to use self-driven research, study, experimentation, and yes, mystical inspiration too. I embrace the exact opposite viewpoint. I care so much for player-driven character development and PC-controlled self-education that I'm willing to throw WtO Guilds away. I find them a secondary setting element that is somewhat useful as a counterbalance to the power of the Hierarchy but far from essential, so I'm fine with...
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    Last edited by Irioth; Today, 07:09 PM.

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  • Except vampires are actually entirely capable of developing Disciplines on their own, at most they may need a single taste of Vitae from another vampire with innate potential or individual proficiency in that Discipline to unlock its potential for themselves. So it also goes for pretty much all the other supernatural splats about their own powers. An explicit, strict need for instruction to unlock any power is basically unknown. Usually teaching acts as implicit story facilitator that lessens the needed effort, and sometimes this gets an explicit rules acknowledgement, typically in the form of...
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    Last edited by Irioth; 02-19-2018, 11:12 PM.

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  • Irioth
    replied to Why the Dictum Mortuum?
    Technically speaking, the Ritual of Severance was developed before Charon parted ways with the Ferrymen, he turned down the offer to undergo it because of his growing policy differences with the Boatmen Society. This creates the fascinating alternate setting scenario of what would have happened if the split between Stygia and the Ferrymen never occurred or was timely mended, and Charon, the Deahtlords, the Guildmasters, and other leaders and worthies of Stygia had the opportunity to undergo the Ritual of Severance and stay free from Shadow corruption.

    IIRC we had an interesting discussion...
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    Last edited by Irioth; 02-19-2018, 08:03 PM.

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  • So what? Eve is very ancient, no doubt, but before dying and coming to the Underworld due to her bond with her vampire son, she was just an ordinary mortal, just like all the other Underworld luminaries that rose to prominence. And she's only the first woman according to a literalist interpretation of Judeo-Christian mythology, which is demonstrably false or at best a very incomplete, flawed, naive story in this setting (and not something I'd wish in the same building as my gaming). In my knowledge of WoD lore, I never noticed anything making a significant implication Nhudri was a Fallen, quite...
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    Last edited by Irioth; 02-19-2018, 09:37 PM.

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  • Irioth
    replied to Favourite Satiety Conditions
    Hmm, I can see the point in most of the arguments you make, and doing no hunt activities surely can make a character less noticeable to Heroes, but as far as I remember, the Slumbering condition does not make a Beast immune to Hero tracking powers or mundane investigation abilities. As far as I can tell, Slumber makes one more, not less, vulnerable to Hero attacks and invasion of one's Lair. If protection from Heroes is the current main concern, Starving, or hovering very close to it, seems the way to go. The character gets combat and stealth Atavisms running at maximum effectiveness, is immune...
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  • If one combines the two rule statements, it is easy to interpret their meaning as you can usually learn initiate arts in normal conditions if taught or through spontaneous manifestation. Besides, nowhere it is explictly stated you can only learn initiate arts through Guild instruction, although it indeed seems the most common method. A third rule instead says: "Though the Guilds might wish it were otherwise, it is sometimes possible for wraiths to teach themselves some Arcanoi simply through practice and dedication (reflected by experience points), though the player should still be able to...
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    Last edited by Irioth; 02-19-2018, 12:41 AM.

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  • As Callishka pointed out, the rules explictly allow for wraiths spontaneously manifesting initiate arts, and pointed out this should happen when dramatically appropriate, and do not indicate this would be inherently rarer than for common arts. Spontaneous manifestation are, in all evidence, one of the main ways all Arcanos arts were originally invented (the other, in all evidence, would be purposeful research and experimentation). Moreover, and even more importantly, if we were to assume any Arcanos arts cannot be learned without instruction, we would run in the logic bomb that no one would have...
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    Last edited by Irioth; 02-18-2018, 12:19 PM.

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  • Irioth
    replied to Favourite Satiety Conditions
    Conventional morality concerns aside, Low Satiety feeding often appears to be preferable even from a practical/rational selfishness/utilitarian PoV, for the Beast character and the world alike. Given the huge personal risks, purposefully going into Slumbering out of morality concerns seems to be require so much altruistic dedication from a Beast it is questionable how the character was able to reconcile oneself with their Devouring in the first place (in vampire terms, these would be the characters that may be expected to walk in the sun soon after the Embrace). Last but not least, dying while...
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    Last edited by Irioth; 02-16-2018, 08:32 PM.

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  • Except even initiate abilities can be independently reinvented by any wraith through spontaneous manifestation, without any need for or access to Guild instruction, or tapped through Pact of Doom and the Spectral Hive-Mind. Admittedly, in most cases the initiate powers, although definitely valuable in their own way, seem of less general or immediate usefulness than common ones for the average wraith. Since independent development seems to be at least as important a factor in Arcanoi diffusion as Guild instruction, and wraiths appear prone to reinvent the wheel in their acquisition of supernatural...
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    Last edited by Irioth; 02-16-2018, 08:50 PM.

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  • For anyone interested, these are the non-canonical Jade Arcanoi markings that were conceived by the Doomslayers writer. I'm uncertain if and how to houserule them to make them more similar to equivalent Stygian Arcanoi markings in Wr20. Especially since the Wraith20 rules seem to rely on explicit, noticeable, and lasting physical features for guildmarks in pretty much all cases, and disallow such fuzzy stuff such as postures, clothing, and attitudes that was sometimes used in past editions, and apparently replicated in some of the following....
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    Last edited by Irioth; 02-16-2018, 06:41 PM.

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  • Irioth
    started a topic Synergy between Stygian and Jade Arcanoi

    Synergy between Stygian and Jade Arcanoi

    I have some serious interest in Stygian wraith characters that can combine Stygian and Jade Arcanoi. Theoretically speaking, Yellow Spring characters too, except I find a little burdensome the supposed strong focus of most such characters on (living and Underworld) family concerns. Especially since long-standing familiarity with manga and anime, where characters are often orphans or with conspicously absent relatives, has accustomed me to think of East Asian characters in different terms.

    I find very disagreeable in practical and flavor terms the Wraith setting assumption that the...
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    Last edited by Irioth; 02-16-2018, 06:54 PM.

  • Irioth
    replied to Favourite Satiety Conditions
    I share more or less the same preference, hovering on the border between Sated and Starving so that the character can have some buffer against the crippling penalties of Ravenous, yet they can activate Low Satiety Atavisms and become immune to Anathemas with one Satiety expenditure at most. I typically prefer Atavism-focused characters, so I give relatively little concern to increased proficiency in Nightmares. Moreover, Slumbering seems an exceedingly dangerous condition to be in, even more so than Ravenous, so I prefer to err on being on the far side of it. Taking a respite from feeding does...
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    Last edited by Irioth; 02-16-2018, 07:50 PM.

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  • Irioth
    replied to Underworld-focused wraiths
    Ahh, now I see your point and it makes sense. Mine is I'm so accustomed to think of CotD/WoD 'class' splats in negative terms, as stifling and burdensome limits and enforced niches for character creation to be ignored and houseruled away in favor of individualized freeform concepts, that I may automatically sweep manner of death of wraiths away in the same way, regardless of its merits. I usually much prefer to think of which larger supernatural groups the character might associate with, if any, beyond the individual PC coterie/cabal/circle etc., rather than to give any concern the manner they...
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  • Irioth
    replied to Underworld-focused wraiths
    I'm largely in agreement now that you bring my attention to this setting detail (as a rule, I tend to have little interest in playing Hierarchy characters, and hence I pay all but the most cursory and peripheral attention to the features of Legions organization and lore). I only balk at the possible implication that Underworld-oriented wraiths would tend to have Passions any weaker than Skinland-oriented ones. As a matter of fact, one of my main concerns in examining this kind of concept has been to devise proper Passions for these characters that may be as strong, and burn as fierce, as the Skinland-looking...
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    Last edited by Irioth; 02-13-2018, 08:51 PM.

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  • Irioth
    started a topic Underworld-focused wraiths

    Underworld-focused wraiths

    A topic that came to my attention with skimming the Wraith20 book and doing a little self-insertion: apparently the game tends to assume the default attitude of 'young' wraiths is to be focused on Skinlands concerns, the vast majority of their Passions, Fetters, and other Traits being related to some unresolved issue or another of their old lives. Only with considerable, time, experience, and the inevitable decay of their bonds with the Skinlands, they may shift their focus to Underworld matters and resources, provided they skip Transcendence and withstand the battle with Obilivion. Now, this...
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    Last edited by Irioth; 02-13-2018, 05:19 PM.

  • Irioth
    replied to Beast Player's Guide?
    Well, I checked the MMN list and BPG went into proofing at the beginning of December. Even taking the holidays hiatus into account, a month-plus seems an adequate time for proofing a Player's Guide type of supplement, especially for a game like Beast that has no outstanding rules or setting complexity....
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    Last edited by Irioth; 02-12-2018, 01:00 PM.

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  • Irioth
    replied to Wraith20 Backer Errata Thread
    The writeup of Inner Peace, p. 462 seems confusing and imperfectly transferred from the Dark Kingdom of Jade version. W20 writeup says "If the wraith wins, the two may act together, allowing the wraith to gain Pathos from Passions, Dark Passions, and the use of the p’o’s Thorns. (...). The joining of the two aspects ends when the wraith exhausts all of the p’o’s temporary Angst, or 24 hours have passed". There are two problems here: first, there seems to be no clear way for the joined wraith to consume temporary Angst according to this writeup (perhaps by using it as Pathos?...
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    Last edited by Irioth; 02-12-2018, 12:04 PM.

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  • Irioth
    replied to Wraith20 Backer Errata Thread
    In page 458, next-to-last paragraph, text breaks down in the middle of giving all-important instructions for Stygian wraiths that are going to have non-Stygian Arcanoi: "Doing so" What? There seems to be no relation with what is told in the following paragraph about the lack of Guild structure for such Arcanoi, so there is some serious missing text here. Moreover, to our exceeding frustration, the game perpetuates its long-standing failure to define and describe non-Stygian Arcanos markings.
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Irioth
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