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  • Callishka
    replied to Two dates for the Sundering?
    So, I think I found textual evidence of the answer, and it confirms what Ramnesis and glamourweaver were saying.

    First off, I should say that I originally read these books several years ago, and at the time the information overload was a bit overwhelming. This time, I'm slowing down to really organize the cosmology and history. The more I re-read, the clearer everything becomes. I am working my way through Renegades again and found this:



    Well, that pretty much settles it, for me. I'm ignoring the poor wording and clear misunderstanding that Hierarchy writers...
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    Last edited by Callishka; 12-13-2017, 07:26 PM.

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  • Callishka
    replied to Two dates for the Sundering?
    Ramnesis , all plausible ideas.

    I continue to surmise that the antetempestian world, described as a gloomy vastness, could be wandered about in relative safety, but was still incalculably enormous and confusing, hence the need to be guided across the Sunless Sea, and the various references to lost and helpless souls fallen prey to Spectres. Once the Tempest is raging, Stygian becomes one of the only safe refuges in the entire Underworld (as imagined by wraith of western origin, most of whom have little conception of the other Kingdoms and would hardly be expected to travel to them...
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  • Callishka
    replied to Two dates for the Sundering?
    The core book literally states that the separation of the lands of life and death caused the shroud to come into existence, though:



    I'm not sure what you mean by that second interpretation....
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  • Callishka
    replied to Two dates for the Sundering?
    My understanding is that stygia was not in the shadowlands, but was in the deeper underworld, as it is when the Tempest permanently establishes itself. The difference is that the deeper underworld wasn't filled with a tempest pre-3GM, so there was no horrific storm to push through to reach stygia. I'm not sure if that implies that Nihils didn't exist at this time.

    What it does seem to imply is that from the shadowlands, it was relatively easy before the third great maelstrom to walk into the deeper underworld and find your way to the River Styx and onward to stygia, but after the...
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  • Callishka
    replied to Two dates for the Sundering?
    I used to think that the general time described for Charon's arrival in the original core book was uncomfortably recent in time, but then I realized that he is a Minoan and we have to face the fact that the earliest European civilization was the Minoans, and they only existed around 2,600 bce. Western, and therefore stygian, civilization is relatively recent in the grand scheme of things.

    There were settlements as early as 100,000 BC, but civilization took a few thousand years to arrive, and it seems like the writers of wraith are saying that it took until civilization developed for...
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    Last edited by Callishka; 12-08-2017, 11:49 AM.

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  • Callishka
    replied to Two dates for the Sundering?
    Here's my take on their metaphors about wheels and onions. First off, this opinion is informed by the various descriptions of the Tempest as a place where things are located about where you expect them to be located, making geography (and weather) a function of your imagination. That said, the spoked-wheel and onion metaphors may be a way of saying "All Romes Lead to Rome", only replace Rome with Stygia. It's a way of saying that western Wraith see Stygia as the heart of their world (which might be spelled "underworld", lowercase u, not the entire Underworld), and that all...
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    Last edited by Callishka; 12-08-2017, 02:21 AM.

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  • Callishka
    replied to Two dates for the Sundering?
    EDIT: Oops! The title of my post is wrong. I didn't mean two dates for the sundering, but rather two dates for the creation of the Shroud. Sorry folks. Still have the same problem, but it isn't really tied to the Sundering.

    To those without the requisite books, here are relevant quotes. I think this was a sloppy move. "Sundering" and "Shroud" are not exactly obscure Wraith features, and I wish there was basic agreement on their appearance....
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  • Callishka
    replied to Two dates for the Sundering?
    That's probably how I'm going to interpret things, but it seems like a pretty big oversight to call both of those events the Sundering and to describe both of them as periods when the shroud was created. I'm really curious how the writers thought readers would react to that

    Edit: Oops. They don't call the event The Sundering in the Hierarchy book. They do say that the Shroud "arrived" then, though.
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    Last edited by Callishka; 12-08-2017, 01:38 PM.

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  • Callishka
    started a topic Two dates for the Sundering?

    Two dates for the Sundering?

    EDIT: Oops! The title of my post is wrong. I didn't mean two dates for the sundering, but rather two dates for the creation of the Shroud. Sorry folks. Still have the same problem, but it isn't really tied to the Sundering.

    So I just realized that The Hierarchy (page 30) states that the Sundering happened around the time of the Third Great Maelstrom, coinciding with (or describing) the "emergence of the Shroud". That section goes on to explain the consequences of the "arrival of the Shroud", leaving no room for misunderstanding: the Hierarchy sourcebook places...
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    Last edited by Callishka; 12-07-2017, 09:50 PM.

  • Callishka
    replied to Three questions about Gaunts
    Ajax, I should say that I'm enjoying these discussions--they're helping me get back into Wraith and figure out what my interpretation of the setting is
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  • Callishka
    replied to Three questions about Gaunts
    I have addressed your points. First, resolving Fetters is not criminal. (Interacting with mortals is, but if you can hide that activity and resolve your fetters, you're fine.) Second, seeking Transcendence yourself, without dragging in others, is not technically criminal (though the writers are inconsistent about this.) The Proclamation of Reason does not criminalize Transcendence itself--merely persuading others to do so. And, yes, Gaunts will be the oldest of wraiths, typically, so they can get away with their own personal quests to Resolve fetters, especially if they learn in some moldy Stygian...
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    Last edited by Callishka; 11-25-2017, 06:22 PM.

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  • Callishka
    replied to Three questions about Gaunts
    That's an interesting take, but I don't share your view on the gaunts. I don't think they are explicitly seeking Transcendence, but rather are ghosts who have naturally learned to step away from their Fetters. Because this is extremely difficult to do while still remaining in the Underworld, that makes Gaunts a special kind of Wraith who have learned to have freedom of transportation in the Underworld without actually leaving it. The quality that makes gaunt respected, as I understand it, is not that they are close to Transcendence, but that they are free to move about the underworld with fewer...
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    Last edited by Callishka; 11-25-2017, 02:47 PM.

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  • That would be fantastic! Well, let's think up some possibilities. I like the Haunt Club idea. Could be like Ashwood Abbey from Hunter: The Vigil, a club for thrill seekers who want to catch the most rarified anti-Dictum Mortuum experience ever. ...Or maybe Point Break is a better model . Rather than a far-out, philosophical cult of surfers who finance their year-long surfing life with bank robberies, you have far-out, quasi-Heretical, definitely Renegade haunters (lower-case h) who finance their year-long skinriding with flashy violations of the Dictum

    [Edit] ...And robberies of...
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  • That's why you pitch it as a game of being the Poltergeist defending your favorite Haunt, or as D&D in the land of the dead ...
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  • Want to play Lord of the Rings in the land of ghosts, complete with a silmarillion history, an Undying Lands that not every ghost believes exists, and ghost orcs controlled by a force so powerful that it literally cannot be stopped? Want a murder mystery where the person who was murdered is yourself and your friends are helping you get revenge? Want to play a dark Space Opera where outer space is actually the dimensionless underworld of the Dead, and the small planets are islands of stability within that chaotic underworld? Want to be a navigator that helps people through that strange space?
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  • Callishka
    replied to Dead pets and Wraith
    This is not strictly canon but I would allow someone to have their pet with them in the Underworld and just say that the residual memory of the bond they had with their pet manifests as a phantasy. Depending on what you want to do, you could have the pet simply be there the moment their caul is removed, or you could have another Wraith suggest they go to the Tempest to see what they can find, and their pet walks out of the Tempest as soon as they stare into it. A harrowing could perhaps cause the remembered pet to vanish, which would set up an interesting conflict. Does The Wraith try to find...
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  • Callishka
    replied to Three questions about Gaunts
    Yes, I've noticed that WW Wiki has contradictory information, but I'm not all that surprised considering that the Wraith writers didn't make this clear. For instance...



    In other words, the Quiet typically want to resolve their Fetters, and their Legion is encouraged to support them in this endeavor, and they are successful in doing so on a regular basis... yet Gaunts are exceptional and highly respected? If it were so rare to achieve, why would it be rare to encounter a wraith who has dwelt among the Quiet for "any length of time" without resolving at least...
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    Last edited by Callishka; 11-22-2017, 10:06 PM.

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  • Callishka
    replied to Three questions about Gaunts
    --------------------

    All this, and more that I cannot find in the other books (but I will search for these references) suggest that Gaunts are exceptional and highly respected, yet resolving a single Fetter makes one a Gaunt? That seems incongruous.

    See the Book of Legions for the references to the Silent legion's interest in helping its members resolve Fetters....
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    Last edited by Callishka; 11-22-2017, 03:18 PM.

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  • Callishka
    replied to Three questions about Gaunts
    I believe you're confusing gaunts with Domem....
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  • I believe you sidestepped my point, or I wasn't clear, but I don't think you've addressed it. Orpheus specifically mentions Wraiths entering the Skinlands by force, so that they end up on the Skinlands side, which is distinct from being on the Shadowlands side....
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Callishka
Callishka
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