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  • To be fair to Aberrant, I don't think Divis Mal was ever intended to be an antagonist. To be fair again, he was way too much of a protagonist, also.
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  • And this was an excellent decision in contrast with the way WEG D6 handled these characters....
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  • Resplendent Fire
    replied to You Know What I Hate MK I
    Yeah, I saw that. I wanted to argue but it was in the V:tM forum and I'd already argued with him about V5 fairly recently....
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  • Indeed. It's not helpful at all.
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  • I think it was more because the connection was not a very good idea, tbh. Ravnos Rev also makes a point to say so, or rather an in-character dismissal of the idea.

    Stuff wasn't ignored due to the lack of a revised edition. VRev acknowledged Werewolf, Mage, and Wraith at least and two of those hadn't had revised editions yet while the third never got one.
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    Last edited by Resplendent Fire; 11-30-2018, 01:30 PM.

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  • Zapathasura had the ability to warp reality to a certain extent. The descriptions of the area where the battle took place show a lot of twisting that can't really be explained by anything else, plus the higher levels of Chimerstry. I don't know if anything later tried to establish that he actually did have a faerie connection but the clanbook seemed to ignore it or shoot it down.
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  • Maxwell needs to live.
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  • There's a huge difference between Kindred being known to a secret cabal in the intelligence community, which was the case prior to Vampire V, and what the Second Inquisition brings to the table - such as the destruction of Schrecknet, the destruction of the Tremere chantry in Vienna, heavily monitoring airports, border crossings, etc. for vampire presence, closing down bank accounts, near perfect monitoring of online and other modern communications, the Second Inquisition literally SWATting vampire havens, and so on. The playtest scenario was really awful for presenting the SI as nigh-omnipotent...
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    Last edited by Resplendent Fire; 11-27-2018, 05:07 PM.

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  • By eliminating it entirely. There are probably other ways to do this without making the existence of vampires publicly known. That part is what I do not like. I also never had the impression that the Masquerade stopped being important, given that it's the title of the game and the overriding law under which pretty much all Kindred operate....
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  • I'm pretty much out once we get to the Second Inquisition. I think it would've been possible to handle the whole surveillance everywhere thing without just eliminating the Masquerade. The rest of it just isn't good enough to me to make up for that. That's on the same level as eliminating the Beast or drinking blood as far as interfering with the game's core assumptions.

    I also don't like the Beckoning, but that's a lesser issue and it'd be livable if the other thing weren't present.

    (not trying to start a debate just adding some detail)...
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    Last edited by Resplendent Fire; 11-27-2018, 01:53 AM.

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  • To elaborate a bit, I really wish we could have seen Eddy Webb's Vampire 4th and OPP's take on the metaplot, Chicago, and pretty much everything else without the baggage that V5 brings to the table - or, for that matter, the significant changes.
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  • I found the Arcanum to be pretty intriguing as NPCs in Vampire games. My main inspiration for that was the Talamasca in Queen of the Damned and The Witching Hour by Anne Rice, both of which came out a year or two before Vampire: The Masquerade.

    Don't take that as an endorsement or defense of Anne Rice's later work, btw. I loved the idea of a secret society that studies the supernatural for their own edification as she originally presented it, and expanded upon that in my own games through the Arcanum....
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  • I came here to say something like this....
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  • Resplendent Fire
    replied to Scion and Monotheism
    I refused to define "god" when Kyman asked me to, and it was you who brought worship into the conversation. I responded to that and pointed to what yazata means to show a distinction from angels, who were not worshipped. You said that the Tuatha De Danann were not worshipped as gods, so the fact that their name literally refers to them as gods is actually relevant.

    There is no overarching definition of divinity, so you have to use any given culture's definition when discussing their particular gods. I never said worship was necessary to be a god, but the information I have...
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    Last edited by Resplendent Fire; 11-25-2018, 04:53 PM.

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  • Resplendent Fire
    replied to Scion and Monotheism
    Kyman objected to it. This is how this entire discussion started....
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  • Resplendent Fire
    replied to Scion and Monotheism
    Ah, okay. I still don't see them as basically angels, and I would hope that they're not presented that way....
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  • Resplendent Fire
    replied to Scion and Monotheism
    This article about whether Loki was worshipped is interesting, and mentions that other Norse gods don't have any evidence of being worshipped. In each case, though, absence of evidence is not evidence of absence and I'd hesitate to claim that Loki was never worshipped.

    http://polytheist.com/orgrandr-lokea...lokis-worship/
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  • Resplendent Fire
    replied to Scion and Monotheism
    Go back and read my first post in this thread and ask whether I was trying to make general statements about what is consistently workable in the game vs. what I said that I specifically prefer to do myself? Why was I asked to justify this, to define what "god" means and in general challenged on what I personally want in my own game? I didn't reply telling anyone else what they should do.

    Invoking Loki and the Tuatha De Danann is also not relevant, because again these are not Christianity and those figures occupy the same space gods do whereas, again, angels do not. Also,...
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    Last edited by Resplendent Fire; 11-23-2018, 06:44 PM.

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  • Resplendent Fire
    replied to Scion and Monotheism
    1) This is completely irrelevant, because the Yoruban religion is not Christianity, and Olodumare does not occupy the same role as Jehovah. Olodumare occupies a *similarly described* role, but the Orisha are still described as deities in sources outside Scion whereas no serious scholar would ever describe angels as deities.

    2) The three are also very different and collapsing them into one pantheon is probably worse than not using them at all.

    I'd appreciate it if people didn't get super invested in me not using someone else's house rules, though....
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  • Resplendent Fire
    replied to Scion and Monotheism
    Orisha are Yoruban deities, though. They can be emissaries of Olodumare and gods in their own right, and most pantheons have a ruler who may also be supreme.

    "How would you define a god" is a pretty huge question, and I'm not even going to try to answer it. I'm just going to say that Yoruban Orisha are gods, however they're presented in Scion, and angels are not.

    And Thrythlind makes a good point about combining Christianity, Judaism, and Islam, and their many sects into a single pantheon. That's definitely not something I'd be comfortable doing in an RPG....
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Resplendent Fire
Resplendent Fire
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