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[Primordial newcomer]

HelmsDerp, re-reading family dinner, my bad. I misremembered how it worked.

you do have a point, but it should still be noted that such a smooth partnership would be exceptionally rare. (though I will say much more beneficial than I once thought for the beast. I thought the partner would still have to inspire fear)

[Primordial newcomer]

family dinner, while a very useful ability, should be noted that beast cant expect to find every supernatural, much less think that they will be friendly to them and ALWAYS be friendly with them.

family dinner in the end has 2 big shortcomings. it relies on the beast being able to establish a relationship with a supernatural who likely wont always be there for him, and 2 hope that new friend is willing to be more overt in his methods so the beast can feed. now the first part can be argued that they dont NEED to be in a relationship, but a beast can only be stealthy for so long before...

[Primordial newcomer]

do whatever you can to win Cinder. we all believe you can do it

[Primordial newcomer]

ahh ok. thanks!

EDIT: I really like your far Walker and troll kith!

[Primordial newcomer]

I'm confused? kiths like True friend are already in 2nd edition. are these supposed to be alternate take

[Primordial newcomer]

while I see your point. since change by itself IS hollow, I think books like Secrets of The Covenants showed that when you apply all the experiments they try. from the successes AND failures, they really shind.

thinking about it now though, 2nd edition did make them change and change only

[Primordial newcomer]

thanks for explaining espritdecalmar. I'm sorry if I sounded like I just singling that part out to get a reaction.

[Primordial newcomer]

this is a VERY good post, and one that does not shy away from very adult themes, but I must ask (and if you dont want me around for asking, because it's quite a pathetic question, I understand), when you said heroes are of a right wing bent, you just meant in the most extreme right?

in case you're wondering, it's because I'm right wing and I hope you dont mean right wing in general

[Primordial newcomer]

I dont think 2nd edition implies they are hollow at all. carthians are a disparate faction, they are not tied by a set in stone idealogy, they are tied to the idea that society needs to change.

carthians shouldn't have a single underlying idea on how vampires need to be run. what makes them interesting is that you never what's going to come from them. how political they are depends on how much you want them to be. same as ordo dracul (and really every other faction. not every invictus state is gonna be suits and ties. they use all trappings of power)

[Primordial newcomer]

beasts dont expect their victims to learn a lesson. the BPG literally states that whether a victim learns his lesson or not is a shot in the dark. a beast knows this as lessons are a framing mechanism for them to control their feeding.

and as you said here "Beast should feed because it is their nature, and forget this crap about lessons and justifications, just like Vampires feed because that is what Vampires do and werewolves because they must. The lessons do not make Beasts any more approachable or less monstrous they just make them hippocrites unlike the the rest of the monsters...

[Primordial newcomer]

i hope the best for genius 2nd edition, it should be a pretty big improvement

that last part, you mind if I keep that as a quote from you?...

[Primordial newcomer]

I completely forgot genius showed the flaw in that as a main theme already

[Primordial newcomer]

no. no they really dont. the monomyth is an epic to tell the story of a hero who kills the beast. in fact heroes like orpheus, heracles and even beowulf are simply about the Hero being the good beating the evil (and it could be said that the monsters were there BEFORE the heroes were, so if anything the status quo changes).

[Primordial newcomer]

the original draft had nothing about nihilism. heroes HAVE been progressing as villains (conquering heroes being the thing to read for that). not perfect, but MUCH better. what does any of this post have to do with explaining your point?

EDIT: I going to be honest, heroes are NOT about patriarchy or ruling class. that's not beast. beast is a deconstruction of the monomyth. it does not try to preach patriarchy and a class system

[Primordial newcomer]

this whole thing is literally, with no context, saying that beast should just take the theme of nihilism because...you want it to? not to mention the last part is something that applies to basically all supernaturals. it sounds like you are just lashing out...

[Primordial newcomer]

what? konrad dont project your own thoughts if that's what you're doing. your posts are bringing nothing to the conversation.

[Primordial newcomer]

that's the thing about tabletop into video games. not every one is call of cthulhu quality (and there's the fact you arent a monster in those games)

[Primordial newcomer]

lessons are unique to individual beasts. it's a flexible philosophy and different beasts have their own beliefs about it. a beast who focuses on lessons of vanity is very different from the one who focuses on the lesson of letting go of the past.

as for needing different philosophies, why should all the vampire covenants keep to the same 3 traditions? shouldn't there be different philosophies than just those?

it's the same as the oath of the moon. it's a set in stone philosophy, but with many different interpretations (especially for blood talons)...

[Primordial newcomer]

it's a pretty big help to have a defense in a narrative made against you. Anathema does not make you more monstrous as much just give you a weakness that you never had before (yes there are ones like rage, but anathema does not suddenly make people think "oh well he's a monster"). it's also up to a storyteller to make sure your actions as a beast effect the narrative the hero has against you

[Primordial newcomer]

I'm not trying to be blunt here, but what's not to see? it's not that the low integrity hero will give up, it's that it will enrage him and make him erratic. in the process it makes it much more difficult to convince the population that the beast needs to die