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  • Aoi Cobalt
    replied to Demons - must they be dangerous?
    Well, that certainly killed the subject.

    But while I'm on it, I'm none too happy about what the 2nd Edition writers did to the city of Malfeas. They took what should have been one of the most alien things in Exalted and turned it into the city of Nexus for demons. I understand why, because with Infernals around, you had to have a playable city of Malfeas. But somehow it just didn't keep the alien feel. It felt like a human city with demons instead of humans.
    I fervently hope that when the 3rd Edition writers get around to the city of Malfeas, they make it an alien and strange...
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  • Aoi Cobalt
    replied to Demons - must they be dangerous?


    Yes, Exalted is a huge heroic game. Yes, that means heroic redemption is up for grabs as part of the setting.
    But also as part of the setting, demons are denyed it. Sad, but true. Everyone except demons can get redemption.

    Creature of Darkness is only a tag, as you said. Everyone can try and get that tag removed.., except for demons.

    That is why I see demons as limited. Because they got deliberately limited in the setting.
    And, until they broke the setting rules for Infernals, Yozi and demons were the only power group that could never have their
    ...
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  • Aoi Cobalt
    replied to Demons - must they be dangerous?
    Is that not a heroic story?
    I have chosen to be an avatar of death, and to kill the whole world.
    Wait, I think that I have mischosen. Instead of just continuing easily down this path, I will heroicly fight my fate and redeem myself.
    Standard Abyssal storyline.

    Demons lack heroic options, so you can not have one decide that it will no longer be what it is, and become something that is not a "Creature of Darkness". Therefore not redemption stories for demons can exist.

    And if a demon can not make a choice to change itself in that way, it stands...
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  • Aoi Cobalt
    replied to Demons - must they be dangerous?
    Once again, I feel there is a meaningful difference between something changing a demon and a demon changing itself. (Free will vs organic programming debate aside).
    We already have had the writers tell us that demons can not be heroic. They lack that ability.
    This means they also lack the heroic ability to decide that they want to redeem themselves (unlike humans, who can, as per the Abyssal redemption trope).
    The easiest way I can see demons not having any ability to choose these is that they also lack the ability to choose to be something they are not. For example, we know...
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  • Aoi Cobalt
    replied to Demons - must they be dangerous?
    So you are down for option 2, that free will does not exist for humans in the game. Well that certainly answers a lot of questions....
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  • Aoi Cobalt
    replied to Demons - must they be dangerous?
    A human, yes.
    A 1st circle demon...? Only if there was a need for murderous florists....
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  • Aoi Cobalt
    replied to Demons - must they be dangerous?
    Yes. You can make a human change. You can make a demon change.

    But the problem that you seem to be ducking is that a human can change themselves, without an outside force.
    A demon can not. Without an outside force, a demon remains what it is. Which is what the Yozi's want out of demons.

    This is the biggest difference between humans and demons.

    Yes, I know the Yozi's made humans too. And after seeing what that lead to, they decided that there would be no more of that, thank you very much.

    Or are you claiming that humans can not make their...
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  • Aoi Cobalt
    replied to Demons - must they be dangerous?
    No, you can't. A human can become what it want to be (within limits, of course). Mercenary, florist, monk, blacksmith. There are forces against this, of course (tradition, family honor, parental wishes, etc), but those are just influences that can be cast off.
    A blood ape is only ever a murder machine, because that is what it was made to do. It can get a personality, learn things to make it better than the rest, but when all is said and done, it is just a murder machine. A blood ape can't stop being a murder machine and be a florist unless someone or something MAKES it be a florist. It can't...
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  • Aoi Cobalt
    replied to Demons - must they be dangerous?
    But for all they do, they are still the same first circle demon they started as. They do not change. They may have another talent, or worked on polishing a useful skill, but they remain what they are with a perceived higher value. A 1st circle blood ape citizen may be the same quality as our Creation merc blood ape, but when all is said and done they are both blood apes....
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  • Aoi Cobalt
    replied to Demons - must they be dangerous?


    I would like to point out that I do support demons being changed, and making them into something that they were not.
    I just think that they can't change themselves.
    ...
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  • Aoi Cobalt
    replied to Demons - must they be dangerous?
    In a metaphysical sense, until they did those things, they might have always carried the change in themselves. Gervesin would always be doomed to change when he killed a mortal, and now that he's done it, he can't go back to what he was before.
    A person would also change after killing their first mortal, but after time and further actions could change themselves into something else. Gervesin changed, but can't change again by himself. He is what he is now.

    Oops, I recalled Gervesin incorrectly. My error.
    Still, I would say he did not change himself, but was changed....
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    Last edited by Aoi Cobalt; 03-09-2019, 07:08 PM.

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  • Aoi Cobalt
    replied to Demons - must they be dangerous?
    That, plus other writings and comments, and a whole slew of things.
    Maybe I'm wrong about defining intimacies, but as you see where I'm coming from, I'll take being partly wrong....
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  • Aoi Cobalt
    replied to Demons - must they be dangerous?
    I don't know how far back it goes, but Infernals and Lunars were made playable.
    And part of making Infernals playable, they had to break their own rules to the setting so that Infernals could do what could never be done. And as part of that, they explained why it originally could not be done. Primordials and their demons literally could not change themselves. They are what they were, or what they were built to be (1st circle all were created for some purpose or reason).

    You want demons to become other things, go ahead, it's your game. I find it's more interesting that demons...
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  • Aoi Cobalt
    replied to Demons - must they be dangerous?
    Yes. I've been in some very posh bars.
    Do you feel that a bar must be a grimy dive?...
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  • Aoi Cobalt
    replied to Demons - must they be dangerous?
    I think the difference isn't they don't have to join in, because some humans also will choose not to join in.
    It's that they can't join in.

    And really, do you see a drunk blood ape as maintaining his control enough to not end up reverting to type and breaking those stupid human rules that it obeys only because it gives him a better chance to commit mayhem? Even humans fail that trick, and we usually understand why the rules exist....
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  • Aoi Cobalt
    replied to Demons - must they be dangerous?
    I think it was in the writer's quotes and comments where they pointed this out.
    Not in a published work....
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  • Aoi Cobalt
    replied to Demons - must they be dangerous?
    I think 2nd and 3rd circle demons have tastes for alcohol. I don't know of many 1st circle demons that might. But maybe demons do drink. That isn't all our human mercenaries are doing (self edited for cleanlyness). I don't think our blood ape merc is going to join them in all their activities....
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  • Aoi Cobalt
    replied to Demons - must they be dangerous?
    I suggest that because the creators of the original Exalted suggested it, that demons lacked the capacity for growth. Which is why they were demons. Which is why demons were never a playable concept, unlike every other power group. Which is why Infernals existed, because demons were not a playable group.
    It's the demon's flaw, and why they are only tools. It's why the Primordials can't escape their prison, because they can't change what they are to become something different....
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  • Aoi Cobalt
    replied to Demons - must they be dangerous?
    Yes, I agree that demons, even 1st circle, are not automatons. They all have personalities and quirks. But their primary motivation, their defining intimacy is locked.
    Even the mercenary blood ape is going to want to commit mayhem and murder between jobs instead of getting drunk and such like his human mercenary buddies. The blood ape wants to commit the mayhem because it is what he does, getting wasted with his buddies never occurs to him.

    The blood ape could restrain itself, and not go off on a rampage, that's just an interesting story idea.
    But our blood ape could never...
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    Last edited by Aoi Cobalt; 03-07-2019, 06:10 PM.

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  • Looking through Seven Devil Clever's story, I see she was only chased by 3 immaculates. Think about what it would have been like in the days before the Empress vanished and the Wyld Hunt was supported. How many dragonblooded would there have been then?
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Aoi Cobalt
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Last Activity: Yesterday, 02:35 PM
Joined: 05-23-2018
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