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[Trollroot]

I prefer the idea that Europeans colonized the world and their diseases and parasites went with them. This included Cainites. Who set themselves up in positions in the night similar to what their old hosts did in the daylight. And whose Elders had their formative years in a time and place where the Judeochristian worldview was not only unquestioned but a large determiner of in-group status. And the political power at the time.

There are methuselahs out there who will smile indulgently at the talk of "Caine" and the Judeochrisitan stories. They are older than Yaweh, older...

[Trollroot]

Like I said, depends on where you draw the line. Mind, I absolutely agree with you on the number of survivors on other continents. I was OK with maybe the Samedi and a couple of incredibly powerful and angry methuselahs. One of my gripes with Kindred of the Ebony kingdom was how disconnected it was from the Jyhad.



Huh, I didn't know that. What happened?...

[Trollroot]

Eh, depends on where you draw the line. Apacia, Byzar, Lazarus, Japeth, Drenis, Constancia, Roger de Camden and Angelique, are all presumed active, any childer they may have sired, maybe Troglodytia, sundry premascines, various infitiores, and all of the Mla Watu which must be hundreds....

[Trollroot]

Yeah, I am sorry but I don't buy it. Like I said, I do buy the lesser families, the Milliners, Putanesca, Pisanob, Dunsirn etc doing an Augustus on Augustus and a Giovanni on the Giovanni. The autocannibalism clan. Byzar or Japeth or Lazarus pulling their strings and giving little pushes in the background. But I don't buy the others getting involved or being greeted by anything but a stake. The Giovanni... they are not just a clan or blood bonds, they are also family. The younger Giovanni would be killing their grandparents and parents here. I'd expect an Anarch revolt among the Ventrue before...

[Trollroot]

Hm. Does not work for me. I was seeing the Fall of the Giovanni coming in their comments about how the Milliners, Pisanob etc minor families were much more numerous than the other clans knew, while clearly having no idea themselves of how big they were. And treating them like shit. I figured all it would take was a small push from Byzar or Lazarus or someone...

This sort of thing smacks of lets all gather the Necromacy users into one group just because. Sure, mortal enemies that have genocides and persecuted each other for centuries will be just on big family. It breaks suspension...

[Trollroot]

I seem to remember something about the original writer of Vasilia misread Baba Yagas stats as "Being 5000 years old" rather than "Being embraced in 5000 BC" So when he wrote the Nicktuku as twice as old, he meant 10 000 years. Embraced in 8 000 BC. Of course, since then we have become aware of things like Gobekli Tepe, pushing monumental architecture back into the Ice Age. So I feel ok going with the 14 000 years age anyway. But if you feel that is too far back, just use the writers intention of 8 000 BC.

On level 10 disciplines, I always thought they take a bit...

[Trollroot]

I noped out of that survey very early. It just smelled like it was fishing for information to sell. Like the Facebook quizzes except more upfront and detailed. I guess I am too sensitive on the subject.

[Trollroot]

Well, I don't think its all fun and games in the family. The stories go that he embraced them to help take down the Second Generation, so he knows exactly what happens when the childer get out of control. So do they. From their embrace, they were created to kill their elders.

I don't think he wants to use them to take out other Antediluvians. Or else Arikel would have had a pack of them coming at her. But if he sent them at other Antes, he'd run the risk of one of them diablerizing the target and possibly shattering his hold. And about that hold...if he has ten of them, then every...

[Trollroot]

Well as long as we remember this is all speculation and conjecture...

Turtling. How has Giovanni and Tremere survived so far? They have turtled behind their clan and new discipline. In Tremeres case he has made it for a millennium I think. Set does appear to have followed a similar strategy with a new discipline, a geographic area where he has claimed total dominion and a group of highly loyal 4th generation kindred concentrated there, in much closer proximity to each other than such creatures usually tolerate.

Dodging. Back at the start of the bronze age, powers and...

[Trollroot]

Not by anyone not on their level. But I could imagine Troile defeating either in combat. Thats the thing, I don't believe the Antediluvians are all closely matched master manipulators. They have different areas of competence and probably different power levels. Every other generation has quite a bit of variance even between members of similar age. Absimiiliard hasn't shown much interest in the exotic powers area and falling behind for 14 thousand years is an awfully long way behind. Also... Zaparathsura/Dracian wiped out the vast majority of his clan in three nights. Tremere and Giovanni has been...

[Trollroot]

I don't know as much about them. Its mostly speculation. Theres a lot more agreement in the old tales when it comes to Absimilliard.

Tzimisce seems to be very much into the "exotic powers and philosophy" going for a transcendence strategy in the Jyhad. This may be why he and Saulot seems to get in each others way so much. They follow a similar strategy and that may make the other look like the closest competition.

Zaparathsura/Dracian is obviously deeply pre-veddic. I am not sure why everyone insists on making him "Indian" he is far older than that....

[Trollroot]

Its a very interesting observation on how generations tend to stop embracing. I think its worth mentioning that it was a common idea on the original board that Set was embraced into the 4th generation and diablerized his way to the 3rd. Several things printed since then seems to add to the circumstantial evidence....