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[Trollroot]

I wouldn't take the BJD chapter on Cartage very seriously, it seems to be all misdirection. Nothing there is plausible.



On the old White Wolf Forums I think this was often linked with the destruction of the Shadowlands Enoch in "Ends of Empire" and the Aralu, there was something about three burning pillars there. Its been many years since I read it.



Could also refer to Ravnos, Troile, or Moloch. Which clan calls it Methuselahs "elder" ?



Here are a few thoughts: Brujah has been speculated to be...

[Trollroot]

Tubal Cain -Tū́ḇal Qáyin- is a Lasombra fourth generation mentioned in the Bible, Genesis 4:22, and the Book of Jasher as the mortal great-great-great-great grandson of Caine. It also counts Irad and Enoch among his forebears.

Esperanza Lucifer the first was embraced between 1654 and 1666 by something described as "The Ancient" and "a Lasombra of great age" The description of her embrace -the ancient bargaining for her consent- is pretty similar to the Antediluvians practice. There are no stats for her her, but her childe is 5th generation.

[Trollroot]

Well, I think it was the clan novels hinted that Lasombra wiped or changed his childers earliest memories... and that Montano was a physical type that does not exist any more, the species having changed since his embrace.

Anyway, Tubal Cain was said to be the first metalsmith and a mortal descendant of Caine, the son of Lamech and Zillah. Josephus suggested he was the inventor of bronze, while T. C. Mitchell believes him to have discovered cold-forging copper which would be much further back. His bible entry places him much further back in time than Elimelech at least.

[Trollroot]

Well, by "more blood-rich through its history", I meant that the continent of Africa through history has been far larger than Europe, far more populous, and through periods with the population tending to be in higher density concentrations. Which is a kindred-friendly thing.

Theres really three things that keeps me from getting behind the Ebony Kingdoms:

I) The notion that Africa was pretty much an empty place in Kindred terms before being colonized by old world bloodlines. And how its sort of a reservation for clans thats been wiped out in the old world....

[Trollroot]

The Ebony Kingdom never clicked for me.

Africa is massive. Second biggest continent, about the size of the three smallest put together. And while the Sahara is a lot of it, it also contains some areas which are, and historically has been, unbelievably population dense and urbanized. Population means blood, the primary resource for the kindred. For example, in the 12th -13th century, Mali probably had more people than western Europe, and in a far denser and more Kindred-friendly concentration.

And according to Time of Judgement, Africa is where the Second City was. Now...