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  • To answer the OP: because Nosferatus are opportunistic (and mercenary), even more so than other vampires. The Camarilla was a much better place for them than the religiously driven Sabbat. The Camarilla requires only that one makes himself useful for the right people, the Sabbat requires that AND more often than not also total commitment.
    Besides the Sabbat formed after the Anarch revolt failed but the reasons for the Anarch revolt to explode was mainly that elders were tossing their childer to the inquisition to save their own skin. The closely knit Nosferatu were probably the less offending...
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  • I don't think Agata Starek is up to the task of putting down Theo Bell (in the Gehenna novel he's literally the last Vampire standing... because he's that tough!) but truth be told, in V5 Anarchs she states Theo Bell is hot AND that she wants to drink him dry and Agata Starek is a diablerist....
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  • Being beloved has nothing to do with why killing Hardestadt was not something the Camarilla could wash their collective hands of. Hardestadt was propbably hated by most (if not all) of his peers and by those who were in his thrall and behind closed doors I've no doubt there had been unmitigated glee at the fact he was taken out of the game. But again, that's besides the point. What happens officially is different from what happens in private.
    You can expect those same vampires who deep down were extatic at Hardestadt's demise to swear bloody vengeance and cry tears of blood for "the...
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    Last edited by Haquim; 11-07-2019, 03:11 PM.

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  • The Red List is and always has been something the Camarilla used to get rid of people their didn't like for reason ranging from legitimate to extremely petty. The very first red lister (Kemintiri) was the reason the Red List was created and she was put there because she killed a few Ventrue elders and impersonated them, which made a faction of the Ventrue Clan feel vulnerable, humiliated and clamor for retribution.

    Theo Bell on the other hand killed the person who founded the Camarilla, during a Conclave when everyone was watching, broke a whole clan out of the sect and on top of...
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  • What I'm saying is that Theo Bell not being an enemy of the Camarilla after killing Hardestadt makes no sense BUT that can be salvaged. I like that Theo killed Hardestadt (he did the same in Gehenna, they just kept the event in the new metaplot without the world's ending).

    As for my own metaplot I made my own a few years back actually, a chronicle of ages from AD1197 (and a few zero sessions going back a century) to Gehenna and I didn't use any of the scenarios provided by WW. That said I think the new metaplot is viable BUT it was rushed. Events need to be fleshed out, as they are...
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  • And again, the Red List is not really about getting rid of ancients but rather disposing of those who embarass and cause problems for the clans of the Camarilla. For every Enkidu, Petaniqua or Kemintiri (not that Kemintiri is a threat to the masquerade... she's probably better than anyone in the Camarilla's inner circle at hiding and disguising herself...) you have the likes o Alexis Sorokin, Jermaine, Christopher Barrow or Aiysha. Some of their "crimes" are much less heinous than what Theo Bell did by executing the founder of the Camarilla during a Conclave, in so doing humiliating...
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    Last edited by Haquim; 11-02-2019, 12:34 PM.

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  • By that logic nothing is "bad writing" because the chance always exist that someone could turn it into something good. I'm not against V5 and I think it did more than a few things "right" with VtM but in my opinion the edition has its faults, which could be redeemed, but currently exist. One of them is the execution of plot developments feels rushed and the Conclave of Prague is one of those. For example, as mentioned before, if things went as explained there's no way Theo Bell is not on top of the Red List.

    As for Tyler, sure she could have been diablerized......
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  • I don't think so. Tyler is a diablerist and we know diablerie helps stave the beckoning off.

    As for why the specifics are important, my point is they do not make sense, which might be turned into a plot point. Why is Theo Bell NOT on the Red List? Is that a conspiracy? How did he escape the Conclave? Did Bell work alone? Did he have help? Did people other than him want Hardestadt dead at the Conclave? Did they want the Brujah out of the Camarilla? Did they work with Bell to achieve those ends? All goodquestions worth exploring and excellent story material?

    And, reguarding...
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  • I disagree on part of this: Theo Bell was the product of his embrace. He had a "good sire" (a non abusive one who actually seemed to value freedom as Brujah's are supposed to do) who happened to also become a justicar and he did appoint Theo as an Archon who did his job well and righteously (which won him acclaim from the Inner Circle but also the enmity of Pashek). Did Theo further the elders' goals? Undoubtedly but he was also able to do that taking down creatures that were worse than the elders themselves (Sabbat packs come to mind). For example you mention the Brujah Trilogy (which,...
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    Last edited by Haquim; 11-01-2019, 09:11 AM.

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  • Theo Bell V5 plotline makes little sense

    So... how do we explain Theo Bell's storyline in V5? Apparently he gets sick of Hardestadt and pulls a "Tyler" by killing him. Only he does so during a Convention (Prague) surrounded by the Camarilla's hard hitters, yet he walks away unscathed and furthermore he joins the Anarchs (who Bell slayed in droves when he was still an Archon, so much that they nicknamed him Killa-B) bringing the majority of the Brujah clan with himself. Even more implausible is the fact he apparently works as some sort of mediator between the Anarch Movement and the Camarilla.

    How does this make...
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  • While the original idea was probably to turn Camilla into a stand in for Marcus Furius Camillus I'm rather glad they distanced the character from the real historical figure as I dislike the early VtM tendency to turn every significant human being into a vampire.
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  • V20 VtDA has Camilla (Camillus really, Camilla is a female name in italian) becoming prince of Rome again in the middle ages and then he's again prince of Rome in the Final Nights. Personally I don't like it (DA:Vampire made it clear Camilla was not interessed in ruling anymore and therefore was a BIG apostate for the road of kings) but that's how it's written....
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    Last edited by Haquim; 10-27-2019, 06:35 AM.

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  • Camilla is powerful allright but as one of the 2 people who invented the Road of Sin he's not exactly somone who's most concerned with ruling a city. Besides Rome is an horrible place for a Vampire as it's plagued with true faith. Besides... I don't put much stock in V20 but Camilla is described as having reclaimed the title of prince more out of spite for the catholic church than anything else....
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  • Mithras was only nominally Camarilla, he disliked the sect as he was much older than it and more importantly it was the creation of one of his main rivals, Hardestadt.
    Mithras was unquestionably powerful but even he had his setbacks starting with being unable to stop the Tremere from setting up shop in England, then the Giovanni assassinating his senschal and Kemintiri driving him to (temporary) madness.
    In my opinion the most powerful Camarilla prince in the US was Vitel (because he was very close to get control over a bunch on nukes...), in Europe it's much more difficult to say,...
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  • Haquim
    replied to Horus vs Mithras
    VtM has never been big with solving mysteries in a decisive way. In the case of Veddartha we know someone using that name is active in the Final Nights and it's unlikely he's the Ventrue Antediluvian. Is he Mithras sire? Is he someone else with the same name (or someone who took the same name)? We don't know and it will probably never be revealed....
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  • Haquim
    replied to Horus vs Mithras
    If a vampire wants to pretend to be much younger than his own real age it does not claim he's 5th generation...
    Btw AFAIK Matheas has never been suggested to be anything but 5th generation and the fact that TC2 made a mistake about Hardestadt doesn't mean it also made a mistake about Maltheas....
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  • Haquim
    replied to Horus vs Mithras
    There's more than a few sources that claim vampires just stole parts of cults to fuel their own thirst for blood, one of the most notable about Mithras is in the DA:Mage grimoire IIRC.

    As for his generation, given how V:tm works the truth about Mithras is what you choose to believe but the fact he's a diablerist has been at least strongly hinted and if we want to go by the sources, he's the childer of Veddartha and Veddartha is mentioned as a vampire surviving to the final nights and not the Ventrue antediluvian. Mithras getting to 4th generation via diablerie wouldn't be far fetched...
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  • Haquim
    replied to Horus vs Mithras
    Mithras was someone who stole the original war god's image masquerading as one (but yes he's got 9 dots in melee so he's damn good with a sword...).
    Also, I've read people here claiming it was revealed Mithras was not a diblerist and he's been confirmed to be the childer of the Ventrue Antediluvian. AFAIK this was never confirmed and the possibility he really was a diablerist was even hinted in later products (just to be clear he's visited by Haqim in London before the Ante disappears and has Quietus 4 in his stat block). The fact someone named Veddartha survives into the final nights is...
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  • First of all I commend the OP for the effort. We need more people trying new things and playing the game, so... well done!

    That said personally I don't think we need complex rules for building Elders and Methuselahs: just give them the discipline powers and the stats and specialties you feel they need in order to fulfill their role in the chronicle. DO NOT apply PC building rules to them. The ST system was never meant to be mathematically ballanced, and you won't get "ballanced elders" at all even if you apply PC rules to them. When building them just remember a good character...
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  • Not all Cainites are created equal. Put simply, some are just better than others or have developed expertises that make them deadlier in direct confrontation. A cainite versed in the art of war who didn't spend time in torpor and is a couple millenia old should have much better combat stats than another cainite who spend 2 millenia in torpor and another 2 studying philosopy. The second one has a different expertise but it's going to be less deadly in direct confrontation, thosugh roles may be reversed in Elysium.
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Haquim
Haquim
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