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  • That’s fine. Not every game is for everyone. My suggestion is to just move on and play the game you like instead....
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  • Well, that is an opinion.

    Another opinion is that the basic rules provide a quick and easy resolution system that is fitting to a genre that doesn’t necessarily put emphasis on physical conflict more than other aspects like social conflict.

    The advanced rules in V5 provide optional rules to place more emphasis on different styles of play. You may not like them, but unlike V20, they do provide these options and the systems themselves are more robust, mathematically speaking to deliver results.

    You may prefer to roll lots of dice, and more power to you....
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    Last edited by Trippy; Yesterday, 04:59 AM.

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  • You are citing just one approach on offer in the V5 rules. There are advanced rules to add detail or tailor to suit taste included also....
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  • To be sure, I'm not sure if any official figures have been released showing unit sales (or whether they will ever likely be). What we do know is that V5 has maintained a Top 5 presence in the retail charts for the last three quarters, since release. For a single core book and a couple of supplements, this is a significant achievement....
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  • If you actually believe that, then fair enough.

    It doesn't address the mathematical problem, however,of the increased number of dice pools being rolled making the outcome more randomised, reducing the influence of game stats, being less likely of creating a game effect and being exponentially slower in practice. From what I can see, you are reducing simulation, not enhancing it....
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  • Just apply the rules as written, utilising some of the advanced options provided? It fixes all the problems with the V20 combat you’ve highlighted above. Glad to see you admitting V20 combat could do with fixing....
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  • Trippy
    replied to Should Kuei-Jin be in V5?
    The two comments are not necessarily contradictory, although they do look that way. I’m taking it to mean, in a comment that is possibly not given in context, that the rules of playing Elders will not require adding lots more rules or stats, but will merely extrapolate on the existing rules as they stand. So, there may be support for playing Elder level characters in the Player’s Guide - which isn’t supported in the core rules explicitly - but there won’t be any massive expansion of rules in order to accommodate them....
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  • Trippy
    replied to Mythologies like superhero genre
    I have to say that, as somebody who has struggled to find a superhero game that suits my tastes for a long while, Scion may well be the one.

    I love the lore and the writing of it but, although I am well versed in Storyteller systems used in other games, I have to be honest and say I am still getting my head around some of the aspects of gameplay with Scion. I could benefit from a few character generation sessions I think, and I hope to get a mini-campaign running with a group some time this year. The supplements look interesting too.

    But yes, the tangent of Scion-as-a-supers...
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  • I don’t need to cede on things I back up with evidence - I argue until somebody provides an effective counterargument and then we move on. Do note that this entire conversation tangent we are having now is because people cannot address the points I have raised, and have just tried to ad hominem it all as an issue about me. This entire tangent is a straw man again. Address the arguments, not the person making them.

    And V5 is not too different to be classified as standing separately to previous editions - based on my personal experience of the game through all editions which I have...
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    Last edited by Trippy; 02-25-2020, 07:44 AM.

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  • Maybe. Although I would point out, that I didn’t approach this issue with any great beef about V20 until people started using it as a stick to beat V5 with. My view on V20, really, is that it was the right product for its time, but it’s just time moves on. If you take, for example, my criticisms made of the combat system - I could make the same criticism of every single previous edition of VTM too. However, people were presenting V20 as ‘perfect’, and beyond house rules, by comparison to V5 which was being continually pilloried by criticism that was largely unfounded.

    And...
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    Last edited by Trippy; 02-25-2020, 07:37 AM.

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  • Well, you seem to be wanting to impress us here that your wrote a dissertation....and therefore insinuate you are more ‘qualified’ than others in their experiences of the game, yet on the other hand have some sort of chip on your shoulder about people pointing out that you haven’t really experienced the game beyond the last few years anyway, and in only it’s most recent edition.

    I’ve read lots of books about World War 2, but I wouldn’t presume to tell a veteran that I know more about the war than he does. Indeed, if I was truly a scholar of the field, I would want to listen to first...
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    Last edited by Trippy; 02-25-2020, 06:45 AM.

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  • Trippy
    replied to Should Kuei-Jin be in V5?
    I’ve been to Samoa on holiday. It is beautiful, as are the people, but I could imagine some hidden vampire enclave, only coming out to socialize on the beaches at night. I could see the locals being aware of it, but keeping the tourists unaware....
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  • No I’m not, because The Masquerade is a defining factor for the Camarilla. It’s their ideal. This is not the case for the Sabbat. The same, I think, would be true of the internet.


    I think the rest of our debate is splitting hairs, because I think we are in broad agreement....
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  • They aren’t protecting the Masquerade, they merely have no means to effectively defeat it and have to adapt to the circumstances. That is a different thing.


    The trouble I’ve always had with these Paths is they aren’t inhuman. They are actually just different aspects of humanity - which is a complex thing. I don’t get a sense of how the Sabbat’s motivations - including being eeeevil - are anything that makes the elevated from humanity. When you site the Dark Web and the like, these are human evils committed for whatever reason, but they are still aspects of humanity....
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  • OK, let's put this to the test then. Statistically, the more that you roll opposed dice pools to achieve a single effect, the less likely the outcome will be effective and the more randomized the outcome will be. This is a fact. In combat situations, where this happens, it means combat is less likely to be resolved quickly and the general length of combat would, on average take longer - with the size of each respective character’s dice pools becoming less of a determining factor.

    If you are claiming that rolling more dice pools to achieve a simple effect, which is statistically...
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    Last edited by Trippy; 02-25-2020, 04:55 AM.

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  • They don’t really protect the Masquerade as much as recognize that they don’t have the collective strength to expose themselves and get away with it.

    That is the thing - a Sabbat vampire could be trying to use the internet to promote the notion that humanity is basically just a temporary illusion, with some of the elements you say. Thing is, the elements you point out are humanity still, at extreme levels. For me, this is an issue with conceptualizing Sabbat as alien entities. What would be goal of the Sabbat using the internet? Just to be eeeevil? Or would there be something...
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  • Definitely. There is an awful lot of ‘masquerade’ going on in the internet anyway.

    On the other hand, one of the problems with representing an alien, inhuman group like The Sabbat is it’s difficult to visualize how this would manifest. To me, the Internet and WWW are sort of Camarilla inventions - a way of herding the masses, and influencing humanity in a hidden, surreptitious way. The Sabbat would be more wanting to blow this ‘masquerade’ wide open and terrify the masses. They’d probably want to upload videos of Sabbat-ey practices and show that masters are real. Not...
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    Last edited by Trippy; 02-25-2020, 01:43 AM.

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  • And you are still foolish enough to believe this - once again demonstrating you don’t know what objective evidence is. I gave you objective evidence, but you refuse to acknowledge it.....again. If you increase the number of dice pools rolled to complete an action - as you do in V20 combat when you have opposed rolls for attack and damage - then you make the chances of a decisive outcome reduced in any given round. There is an increased chance of the ‘whiff factor’ occurring. The maths are easily calculable and objective....but you can’t acknowledge it...again. It is objectively bad to...
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    Last edited by Trippy; 02-25-2020, 01:02 AM.

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  • Your point was to refuse to acknowledge evidence given and then just repeatedly demand that I give evidence, again and again. You erroneously suggested that the examples I had given were anecdotal - when they were actually examples of how the mechanics worked mathematically - which is objective evidence, whether you like it or not. It was a revolving argument that was essentially saying that you didn't want to engage in any logical debate because, on an emotional level, you've simply decided that you don't like V5 and you don't like people who do, and you couldn't accept criticism of V20 or accept...
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    Last edited by Trippy; 02-24-2020, 11:21 PM.

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  • Again, be clear on this: I claimed that the V5 combat system was objectively better than that of V20, and gave examples of how V20 rolls could be ineffective and ultimately produce meaningless results - whereas V5 had a streamlined system that prevented this (the so called "whiff factor" in game design parlance). You failed to recognise the evidence presented, and erroneously equated observations as opinions and examples given as 'anecdotes'. You cannot recognise what a fact is or what an opinion is - you simply couldn't get this in the conversation we had, and this is the big problem...
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Trippy
Trippy
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Last Activity: Today, 06:46 AM
Joined: 03-16-2014
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