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[Shakanaka]

I also think that with the First Change by itself, the new cub practically NEEDS Garou society as adequate support at this point. Garou as a default aren't human (nor the wolf if their natural breedform is Lupus instead of Homid) and with their innate rage, have trouble making common ground with human society; especially after the point of First Change like I mentioned earlier. I can only see a Garou splitting off (becoming Ronin) from the Nation as a whole when they've gathered some years of natural survival skills for it to be viable.. but a cub on its own, confused entirely about its entire...

[Shakanaka]

Go inside.. Oblivion? lolno. There is nothing to go inside, you're just disintegrated.. that's it. Where do you get the notion you can go INSIDE Oblivion? You can't because anything in Oblivion is completely destroyed. There is also a minutiae difference in what Oblivion causes than say, the destruction the Wyrm gives for an example; Oblivion gives a full wholesale instantaneous (key prefix-verb here, "instant") destruction while the Wyrm is the one actively corrupting and destroying things with physical actions. That's why Oblivion is so insidious, because its simple a focal point of...

[Shakanaka]

The concrete thing here is that the predication surrounding whatever "Abyss" the Lasombra interacted with was something that;

A) that it could be something that you can go inside
B) has no particular purpose than a "conceptual" realm of darkness and shadow, but that's it- no word of destruction whatsoever
C) something that they not only COULD go directly inside of, but leave easily when they wanted to
D) and it has some form of awareness and it is directly ACTIVE in some shape, because the Lasombra draw upon its awareness and physical "shadow-stuff"...

[Shakanaka]

Here we get the explicit purpose of Oblivion is that is a just passive nothingness that is just there, and that anything that goes at it is simply just extinguished outright. There is no "within" Oblivion what so ever. Its not an entity, not aware, not anything in particular other than a splotch of unreality. Not even the people who wrote up D:TF even went as far as saying the Abyss was "in Oblivion" but rather "under" it (just general hackey stuff from D:TF). Its to a point where Oblivion will be the final destination for the Wyrm to destroy itself if it ever destroys...

[Shakanaka]

Level 9 of Prime allows you to create an entire universe and in Aberrant, novas with Quantum level 6 can also create their own universes too. Are Prime and Quantum somewhat the same or do they just have similar properties? Honestly these concepts are just wildly awesome!

[Shakanaka]

I wonder how in the world he did this, lol. He must be a Marauder for somehow breaking the reality of the site....

[Shakanaka]

What are you even talking about? When have Neverborn ever inhabited an Abyss? The Neverborn reside in the Labyrinth in the Underworld. WTO never had an Abyss in its series before in the first place, only Oblivion and that was it. Not only that anyone who has "contact" with Oblivion just poofs out of existence, it doesn't turn you into anything. The only things that turn Wraiths into Spectres was their natural permanent Angst going up to 10, failing a Harrowing, or being shredded up in a Maelstrom.

EDIT: Also tell me ANYWHERE in Wraith where it explicitly says Oblivion has...

[Shakanaka]

Apparently there are some Wraiths in the Middle-Umbric Abyss, but they came after the Six Great Maelstrom had happened- with this being inducted that it was never a realm Wraiths could really go to unless under the rarest or strange circumstances (which a Great Maelstrom certainly would count for). Wraiths as is can't easily go into the Middle or High Umbra at all. One of my first threads on this site was explicitly asking if Wraiths could set up bases there, but everyone directly consensus'd that it's extremely rare for Wraiths to be in the other Umbras. I heard that the only places to get to...

[Shakanaka]

RAW is an acronym for "Rules as written".

[Shakanaka]

It doesn't sound familiar because again, Oblivion isn't aware or has no intelligence if you even read my previous posts. It has no agenda nor does it actively spread corruption, Oblivion just is. And I also went and looked into the Lasombra sourcebook AND even mentioned it by myself before I checked it beforehand that as you say, the Abyss is a semi-aware ENTITY- some sort of BEING, which Oblivion decidedly isn't. The approach isn't logical nor is it consistent as you say when we check previous precedents directly from multiple books, not from the wiki.

Also Malfeas is a singular...

[Shakanaka]

1. Wraith never had an Abyss discounting the mess from D:TF and that add-on was past when Wraith ended.

2. Its very likely the Abyss is purely Middle-Umbric and its not a "Vampire/Lasombra" Abyss alone purely, its just something the Lasombra clan discovered with its obsession with pure shadow, but it predated them

3. Again, some hackery from D:TF. Though the D:TF "Abyss" apparently is in the LOW-UMBRA somehow under Oblivion for whatever reason (probably for edge factor for the sake of it). The Lasombra with stuff I've shown from their book says the...

[Shakanaka]

Eh, the Neverborn as is pre-date all Spectres so that would directly before the hive-mind ever was a thing. They definitely aren't Spirits from the Umbra, but definitely not conjured by mere ideas of anything concrete since they came about when Life split from Death itself. Though you can say that maybe the formulation of the IDEA of Life and Death itself being the cataclyst of their spawning is the "idea" that they spouted from particularly, because the former insinuates Life and Death used to be one concept entirely and not separate at all; until such formulation finally came about...

[Shakanaka]

What? When and where has it been described the Wyrm is imprisoned in the Abyss? The realm of the Wyrm is Malfeas and that's its realm of complete control- it isn't imprisoned in it all. The closest it has been "imprisoned" was literally by the Weaver and that's what drove it mad in the first place, but then again the Weaver definitely has little to do with the Abyss. The Abyss by no margin was EVER associated with the Low Umbra pre-D:TF and its hackery in the setting where is claims anything could exist UNDER (not the center of it) Oblivion; which is nonsensical to say the least (with...

[Shakanaka]

Well since Vitae is simply the latin word for "Life" via from what I got from a google search, I'd assume other cultures would likewise call the lifeforce they draw sustenance from mortals to some form of the regional language that also means "Life"'; or maybe instead of "Life," a moniker would be given for blood in general too in their native language instead.

[Shakanaka]

The Abyss was a NEAR REALM aka in the Middle-Umbra. It's literally directly mentioned as Near Realm you can go to into in Werewolf at Chapter 2 of W20 - Umbra - The Velvet Shadows as the first Realm described and p.329 of the core of W20 also lists the Abyss as a Near Realm in the Spirit world. If it was in the Low Umbra, it would've been mentioned as such- but it ISN'T. Spectres aren't described as being the in the Abyss, no mention of the Labyrinth, or the Tempest... I still fail to see how they are the same. And the Neverborn literally have nothing to do with the "Fallen/Elohim",...

[Shakanaka]

Yeah its really bizarre argument people conjured up to justify their "distaste" for certain clans by claiming they were only meant to be "ST only clans"... Like what? It never made sense to me when people would mention that at all because its not as if a player couldn't choose that particular clan right when they were introduced - as you noted - in a Players Guide of all things....

[Shakanaka]

Wait, what? All you have to do is lower the Gauntlet level via a simple Arete roll if you have the Spirit Sphere up to at least 2 (which is very basic) and the Spirit that you have follows you on the other side to have the Materialize charm/power. All it takes is for the Gauntlet level to be lowed to even or lower than the permanent Gnosis rating that Umbrood has. After that it can practically do anything it wants for at least a scene or longer if the ST has it where a certain area has a constant low Gauntlet level.



I thought only Constructs and Familiars were subject...

[Shakanaka]

What would be the point of having an Elder book when the entire settings mechanic dynamic has been capsized to be weaker and Disciplines are only stuck at a flat 5 dots, which is merely Anchillae tier? I doubt they will ever do any Elder material with the current design philosophy surrounding V5, they want to keep things relegated to a weak street or neonate-tier style of play only....

[Shakanaka]

What a laughable retcon. There is no ENERGY in Oblivion, its Oblivion- aka the net null. How the hell can anything draw power from it? Spectres don't even do that, instead using their natural Angst. And again as I posted here 2 months ago on the first page of this thread, the Lasombra always drew their power from the Middle-Umbra via the Abyss Shadow-Realm (key word realm, a realm you can go to unlike Oblivion.. where y'know, you're zapped into non-existence if you even reach a hand out to it at the ledge of the Well of Oblivion). That's where actual ephemeral energy is to fuel their shadow abilities;...

[Shakanaka]

Yep that seems correct. Though my confusion stems for whether Onceborn are more Nephwrack-like; I always thought them as essentially the highest pinnacle of the Spectre caste system being the most deadly and intelligent of the Labyrinth brood. I just thought Hekatonkhires to be failed Onceborn for the very fact for them being "Shade-like"....