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[Mister_Dunpeal]

Eh. Maybe but the first time I saw them I remember them being alot more aggressive (if self serving) in 'The Last Outpost' which is when they were interrupted and this differed much later (particularly if you compare it to say, Quark, from DS9, but also later TNG-era Ferengi apply.)

Here's an article that perhaps explains what I am trying to demonstrate: https://trekmovie.com/2018/03/21/arm...xt-generation/



'Mercenary capitalist' could still fit in with that but it's clearly something that changed even in later TNG era nevermind DS9.

Now with...

[Mister_Dunpeal]

Eh, I'm not sure everyone would prioritize 'living forever' especially the way vampires do especially if it means paying some of the prices vampires do. Even if it does you could expect it to be treated the same way other 'luxuries' are in real life (something like that might be available only to the richest of the rich.. which works fine given how many vampires are often wealthy as well.) but I'm not sure even that doesn't have risks (blood bond comes to mind...)

Alternately, if we figure the Invisible Hand of Capitalism comes into its ideal, vampires are hunted, captured, then...

[Mister_Dunpeal]

I think part of whether this works or not will depend on how you perceive the Masquerade to work. Originally it's just information control and secrecy, but if you added a supernatural element to it (magic, say via the Tremere) it becomes a little bit easier. Some sort of perpetual 'forget me' field (like the Delirium minus the fear in WtA). Or maybe its an extension of vampiric nature (something like the 'Arcane' background in MtA maybe?)

Elements of technology can still help to play into that/reinforce 'rationalization' efforts that the magic might rely on (Theogrim mentioned...

[Mister_Dunpeal]

Interesting parallel there. The Ferengi initially in TNG weren't nearly the money-grubbing parody they were much later in the series (although to be honest you saw much the same 'one-dimensionalness' afflict other groups like the Klingons as well'. Nevermind the myriad forehead aliens.)

I sometimes wonder if there wasn't some aspect of writing at that time that influenced this sort of thing. A narrative convenience say (you didn't intend to develop them very deeply, so you make them superficially interesting by one or two key qualities and leave it at that.)...

[Mister_Dunpeal]

Huh, the demographics will be interesting to look at.

Anyhow relating to the original discussion.... anyone ever spend any length of time amongst 'hard' science fiction fans*? If you have, you'll note that they often argue (violently) over what qualifies as real and 'magical'. And the notions of what is 'realistic' have changed over the decades as the fandoms have changed and you have all these little camps that have their own views about what is or isn't right.

When you have a 'consensual reality' setting like WoD's MtA, it doesn't become hard to think that people's...

[Mister_Dunpeal]

I actually also forgot that Mage Revised had 'unaging' as a 2 pt merit and the excuses included various reasons (including Technocracy gimmicks like really good nanotech) which might technically fit the requirement but isn't exactly 'common' (but also somehow avoids the 'stagnation' I spoke of from Masters of the Art.)

The first version of Sorcerer had an even funkier merit called 'Immortal' which came in two flavors - a 5point one that seemingly offers partial immunity to diseases, indefinite/increased lifespan. Basically tolkien elf-version since it requires being killed (weapons,...

[Mister_Dunpeal]

In addition to what Aleph said, immortality was covered in some detail in 'Masters of the Art' (including 'immortality' rotes as alternatives to things like Ghouling which along with vampirism, mummies and Liches is covered to an extent.) The main reason they give for immortality is that immortality means an effectively static resistance (one reason why many of those routes discussed seem to either deny you the use of magic, or in raising at least Arete, like with Liches.) You trade 'dynamic' for 'static' (which is interesting as its implied hedge mages might have a source for immortality too...)...

[Mister_Dunpeal]

AFAIK there isn't much contradiction between DtF and HtR WRT to the status of the imbued. Days of Fire mentions figures who could be the Scarlet Phoenix and Ebon Dragon (likely are) whilst Apocrypha had Fyodor encountering two beings who had rings with different colored stones (Black for the man, red for the woman) which also suggests those two. So that they were involved with the imbued seems beyond dispute.

The main issue I think is not so much the concept's general idea as opposed to the interpretations of specific details. And 'the Infernal' for HtR kinda goes into this....

[Mister_Dunpeal]

Well a recurring pattern (esp among earlier vampires) is that they try to be builders and organizers and leaders of society (including humans) and fail utterly at it (whereas in modern nights, they do better simply by attaching themselves to the existing mortal civilization and surviving off that.)

Alternate idea: Given the ties of Alexandria to Egypt, some sort of connection to the Setites is logical, whether direct war or (more likely) infiltration and subversion of a competitor (either to bring them down, or to take them over.) The Wikipedia Entry has an interesting detail that...

[Mister_Dunpeal]

Obviously there are certain ideas that are more 'right' than others. Like Tremere not being Tremere (or being Saulot, regardless of Saulot's motives) is 'mostly' true and canonical. That Saulot also visited the Kuei Jin to find enlightenment is also true (although the results of that is up for debate) and the fact he earned the enmity of the Kuei-Jin in doing so is also true (whether this is justified or not is, again, up for debate.)

Most 'broad' facts in the metaplot will be 'right' (even across multiple systems) which is actually an asset as far as reconciling goes. Its when...

[Mister_Dunpeal]

This.. isn't something that can have a simple answer. If you look for a specific Truth, then different inconsistencies (and they do exist, even within a specific game system when you consider how many editions it's spread over and how its changed over the years) will hinder finding that Truth without discarding at least some of it. And that invites argument over which parts should or shouldn't be discarded.

It only gets more complicated if you attempt to tie together the various game systems. It's been commented before across multiple games and multiple times that the 'truth'...