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  • In general KJ views on the Kindred didn't bother me any more than vice versa because most supernatural factions have less than perfect knowledge of other supernatural factions in the WoD even without factoring in prejudices. The KJ aren't going to be any different in this regard. I'm also pretty sure a number of supplements from the KOTE era on both sides have discussed the conflicts with the Kindred and the differences and benefits/drawbacks therein. The aforementioned prejudice/ignorance played part of a role there, but alot of it was fundamentally different ways of approaching warfare as well...
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    Last edited by Mister_Dunpeal; 09-16-2020, 07:50 PM.

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  • I cited the revised one because there were major differences between Revised and Mage 20 when it came to that merit (namely M20 got rid of the possibility of a kinain mage having cantrips at all.) It was the same change they made for Kinfolk Mages (no Gifts for you, and they explicitly stated this) although for some bizarre reason Ghoul Mages still get their benefits (as if somehow being tied down to the Garou culture or Faerie culture was somehow less of a drawback rather than simply being a different one.)

    I mean anyone is free to pick whichever version they want as far as the...
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  • That can still be 'lack of space' to develop the idea. Brevity is a natural consequence if you're expected to distill a vast, complicated concept like a 'five-system collaboration' into a single book that is by definition going to be smaller than a rulebook. It's probably more in line with something like how 'Gehenna' was handled ( where each book had its own supplement to handle one facet of the 'end times') - so really you'd have one unifying concept (the Circus) that was handled according to each system's own peculiarities of theme, etc. And maybe one additional book to tie them all...
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  • Mister_Dunpeal
    replied to Mage Advice - Dark Ages
    I think your ability to 'run with' a bunch of elder vampires isn't tied so much to magic so much as how you use it. You can actually get away with alot more as a mage given time, preparation and the right mix of spheres even if you're not going past the 6th dot (The 'Masters of the Art' archspheres stuff is REALLY wacky and game breaking because of what they're described as being able to do. But even the alternate archspheres can be pretty crazy.)

    In fact, if you're using spheres in the Dark Ages setting (which in Dark Ages: Mage was using the 'still limited but more versatile than...
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    Last edited by Mister_Dunpeal; Today, 11:40 AM.

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  • IIRC the information you could obtain from the 1st dot of a sphere also could give you bonuses to certain rolls (abilities and skills mostly, I think) but the knowledge could be used in many ways to act if you were creative enough. I was still more a fan of Awakening and the 'Practices' it associated with each dot (First dot being knowing, unveiling and compelling for example. It maintained that same 'you have to be creative to use it effectively' but gave you more options and made you feel more.. magical.)
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  • So basically it's ambition exceeding reality. I mean what you say makes all kinds of sense - each WoD setting in and of itself can be pretty complex, even convoluted. Trying to tie two settings into a crossover is complicated enough (and when it's been done in supplements can be very hit or miss) Tying FIVE supplements together is going to be massively more difficult (by 'two setting' connections alone it doubles it - 10 possible combinations. But then trying to connect those connections is even worse.) At best that sort of ambition requires more time and space to develop properly... meaning...
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  • Mister_Dunpeal
    replied to Fallen & Wraith
    TBH WoD has a history of revising itself even within specific game systems to a degree that contradiction in some way, shape, or form is inevitable even without crossovers. And whether its retcons within the setting or in crossovers whether it is a problem or not depends on whether the reader is able to rationalize it themselves. If they do, its not a problem. If they can't... its a problem. So its a 'YMMV' situation. Some people will be more forgiving of certain changes than others, or just be bugged less (or more) overall by the idea of changes period (see VTM and its respective editions...
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  • Honestly I find this hard to answer because I'm not sure you could neatly define 'humanity' vs 'supernatural' since there's so much overlap. Alot of 'supernatural' factions may have sympathy or outright alliance with humans (the Technocracy are the obvious example) so they would fall on the side of humans even if they are Mages. Likewise alot of faith-based mages might also fall on the side of humanity (interesting idea if this causes a rift in, say, the Celestial Chorus). And of course there's the Imbued. Lucifer is also another example (from Demon) who is 'Pro-Human' supernatural and...
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  • Well going by the 4 pt Merit from the Revised Rulebook:



    I think it really depends on how you choose to interpret that relative to the two system's rules. For a kinain mage I always viewed it as 'you have some supernatural potential based on your faerie roots' they just create the effects differently. You might have some innate cantrips (the way a Ghoul mage could have disciplines or a kinfolk mage could have some gifts) but you would emulate Arts/Realms magic through the spheres. The Fae approach to magic would SHAPE how you view those spheres however. Wayfare might...
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    Last edited by Mister_Dunpeal; 09-16-2020, 05:42 PM.

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  • physical attributes in RPGs tend to be oddly abstracted when it comes to real life, and the Storyteller system is no different. I mean muscles are technically about a wide variety of things that fall outside those neat categorizations (strength and speed can be tied in ways they aren't always in RPGs. I mean given that fast moving objects tend to have alot of force behind them, you don't need bulging muscles to punch harder.) Real Life 'strength' can manifest in multiple ways due to the quantity as well as type of muscles fibers as well as the person's ability to harness them (all variables I...
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  • I liked Awakening's approach to rotes and that's always one option. Ascension always seemed to treat Rotes (slightly) as a difficulty modifier (no fast cast penalty if its a rote?) but you could expand that to reduce difficulties on rolls (if you wanted to simulate linear magic you could say 'develop' a rote where it reduces the difficulty by one for a fixed number of XP added to the cost of learning the rote, but it has to be performed in exactly that manner.) You might also consider treating it as 'vulgar without witnesses' which would seem to bring it closer to linear magic's reduced severity.)...
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  • As I recall Revised had the option that you could be Fae-blooded and a full mage as one of the merits (the changeling equivalent to Ghouls and Kinfolk basically) and they followed the same principles.

    I also think there's enough overlap between 'modern' (as opposed to Dark Ages) changeling that you could have a Kinain 'Orphan' mage whose understanding of magic derived from Fae Catrip arts, for example.
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  • This really feels like you could take any (or all) of the ideas presented here and let the player use those as a springboard to character development (a way to evolve their understanding of magic and how they use it and their dependence on foci by considering the relationship between the symbols and their meaning to the mage as a person.) Coming to some realization about that would free them towards the expanded options and greater flexibility suggested in so many ideas (either by broadening the symbols that can attach to a meaning, or her willingness to adapt that symbolism as circumstances permit.)...
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  • I still maintain that for high level supernaturals 'death' has all the relevance it does in comic books. Deaths occur if convenient but they may not be permanent. And high level vampires (like many high level supernaturals) have ways to get around death in some way or another (what the cost may be is another matter.)
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  • Mister_Dunpeal
    replied to Gods and Vampires?
    As Pleiades notes, God is more a title than a thing. If you have the ability to enforce the declaration in some manner, you're a god and nobody can gainsay you until you no longer can enforce that. It's very perceptual as far as semantics goes....
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  • When you're talking about most high end supernaturals like Caine, the concept of 'death' has about as much meaning to them as it does to your average Marvel/DC comic book character. Dying or killing them may not be the problem, ensuring that they stay that way is the issue.

    As far as Caine origin stories, it's a bit like King Arthur I think. Believed to exist, but may not have existed (or if he did, not in the way believed.) For example what if the idea/concept of Caine isn't tied to one person but could be 'passed along?' I believe the TV series Supernatural applied that idea....
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  • I feel like most questions of this nature context matters in terms of 'over powered' since much of it is contextual. Stuff like Necromancy and Blood Magic can be quite powerful in the right context when playing to their strengths (or if we're considering the perspective of fluff vs mechanics) but if you're in a close up fight someone with high level celerity and/or potence can wipe the floor with a blood magician who isn't fully prepared.

    I think if you AREN'T putting any constraints (time, situation, etc.) on the question then Necromancy and/or Blood Magic qualify simply because...
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  • To quote 'Blood magic':...
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  • It's certainly cultural, and I see it as a difference in tolerance. I mean compare the Shih to the Society of Leopold. Hell isn't the middle east generally 'better' in their engagement with the supernatural than the west (meaning the US and much of europe?) It always struck me as the west being more fundamentally ignorant and more intolerant (which likely reflects the success of factions like the Technocracy, vampires, etc. suppressing those supernatural elements and shaping public opinion.)...
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  • I think he meant 'hunters' in the general sense, not just the Imbued.

    Anyhow I'm pretty sure alot of the DtF material hints at the Malhim being proto-Fera but there's enough wiggle room I think you can make a (lunar) exalted tie-in that might link to it to the middle kingdoms (then again they have their OWN shapeshifters...)

    As far as 'weird news' the proliferation of social media has brought alot of fringe news into the mainstream (including conspiracies, tabloid crap, etc.) so it can be harder to 'control' information than it used to be. On the other hand, there's...
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Mister_Dunpeal
Mister_Dunpeal
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Last Activity: Today, 11:40 AM
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