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  • Kharnov
    replied to Game with only two players
    In my opinion, yes, but it will require adjustments. You might need to make sure that your player has a larger number of non-player allies or associates available, to help covers the gaps in skills that your player may need in certain circumstances. You're also going to need to make sure that any Plot Hooks are relevant to your one player character, since there isn't a whole group with a variety of possible reasons for choosing a given course of action.
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  • There is definitely an element of that Buddhist take there, I agree But you have to consider the parts in relation to one another, not just in isolation. And you need to consider the concepts and ethics of Buddhism that aren't present, as well. Mainstream Metamorphosis is a supremely egoistic endeavour, a belief that the Self exists and that it can become separate and superior to the Other Lesser Things. Buddhism believes in transcendence, but it also commonly believes that the Self is one of those illusions to transcend, which makes Metamorphosist acts that inflict suffering on Others for...
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  • As you've noted, "indulging the Beast" is obviously a problem for Humanity, but you're also ignoring a lot of what is insinuated by "Do not divorce yourself from the world... but do not allow yourself to be dragged down by its entanglements." It's pretty vague, but generally what's included in that are finnicky little things like "human rights" and "being attached more to this person than all the interesting stuff you can learn by vivisecting them."

    I've generally considered two "variants" to the "orthodox" Road of Metamorphosis:...
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  • Yes, but my introduction also premises that you should bring up stuff not already discussed in the previously-linked thread, and that you should actually be discussing their value in detail. Just listing them off so you can spend the rest of your post arguing with the premise is still derailment. And Animalism and Auspex produce mental/spiritual changes, not physical ones, AFAIK?

    But yes, I 100% agree about all the physical Disciplines, 200% on Protean (who DOESN'T want Agg-claws for their Zulo-form?)....
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  • PJ123 Thank you for bothering to respect the premise of the thread.

    Apparently it's broken as hell, but I rather liked the Path of Focused Will as an "internal improvement" Path. I haven't looked at Biothaumaturgy much, but it seems like it might open options that might otherwise not be available to Vicissitude until higher levels, or might be useful for someone interested in the Path that doesn't otherwise have access to Vicissitude.

    To the extent that I like the way World of Darkness generally makes a giant mysterious mess of their lore and cosmology, I liked...
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    Last edited by Kharnov; 11-10-2020, 03:14 PM.

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  • For a possible new conversation prompt, on the relationship between physical and spiritual transformation, Valeren literally causes you to grow a third eye ...
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  • I'm not confused by the word "precede" Shakanaka . It means "to come before," as in "Metamorphosists are interested in physical transformation because it precedes the spiritual transformation that is necessary for Azhi Dahaka."

    And again, MOST is all I need. If there are SOME Metamorphosists that consider spiritual evolution to be an important part of Metamorphosis, then I am correct. YOU are the one trying to argue that spiritual matters are irrelevant to the Path at large, and you are the one with less sources to support your position.

    ...
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  • So Shakanaka , I did in fact see those quotes when digging up the ones that supported my position. You took the time to get offended by my use of the word "lot," so you had to have read the part that I acknowledged that "Chaining the Beast" was the exception that did undisputedly place Vicissitude at the centre of Metamorphosist practice. So you're bringing up one source that I have already acknowledged, and countered with three more, including one which is very clear that:





    Simply proving that physiology and science are important doesn't...
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    Last edited by Kharnov; 11-09-2020, 11:10 PM.

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  • So I cite like three sources supporting my assertion, and you skirt around it by cherry-picking the word "soul" like I didn't just provide a quote about how mainstream Metamorphosist philosophy posits physical change as a predecessor to spiritual change.

    And again, I'm not rejecting the importance of physical transformation in Metamorphosis, I'm rejecting the claim that spiritual evolution is irrelevant. Which is, again, a position that I've backed up with multiple citations.

    Cite your sources, or step out please
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  • Shakanaka (and anyone else on the "Metamorphosis is all about biology" train)







    *ahem*

    But, I will be fair to you lot:



    I just say "ick" in response.

    And I want to be very clear that I mean this in all seriousness, and I am not trying to troll you lot, but you are almost certainly going to believe I am:

    In both V20's Path (level 2 sin) and DAV20's Road (level 1 sin), the words are "alter one's own body." Not "alter one's body into a transhuman...
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    Last edited by Kharnov; 11-09-2020, 07:36 PM.

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  • Shakanaka ​I can agree that the transformative nature of Vicissitude served to inspire the Tzimisce to develop the Path of Metamorphosis, but the argument that Vicissitude is necessarily the best or most important tool for the job doesn't follow from that. I also reject the conception of the Tzimisce as predominantly biologists, primarily or exclusively concerned with physical evolution. I have been very inspired by the example of the Eldest in that regard, but I don't consider it the end-all-be-all approach. One of the coolest things about the concept of Metamorphosis is that each individual...
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    Last edited by Kharnov; 11-09-2020, 04:48 PM.

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  • Cite me some sources! Please tell me where they put a step-by-step roadmap to Metamorphosis in writing that includes the necessary conditions, and lists the ways in which Blood Magic can help you concretely achieve that goal.

    I believe the closest thing there is to a hard source on "what" Metamorphosis might actually look like is in the Revised Tzimisce Clanbook, but I do not recall it making any definite claims about the efficacy of Blood Magic in achieving that end. That and the Eldest supposedly achieving it in "Crucible of God," but that's pretty outside...
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  • Alphari The entire point of the Path is the problem...? Other than that, yeah, mainstream Metamorphosists focus on physical transformation and Vicissitude, but both the title of this thread and the previous thread linked emphasize that we're interested in discussing beyond that, so all the talk about how Vicissitude alone is good enough for some is kind of irrelevant.

    MyWifeIsScary ​​I was mostly just talking about my reference to your mention of Valeren, lol, but you are good for discussing the philosophies of Hermeticism, Gnosticism, etc., as well Your posts have probably...
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  • A part of me definitely prefers the more rationalist approach of Thaumaturgy to the more shamanistic practices of the Koldun. But I've seen a number of posts on these forums claiming that Thaumaturgy has been stripped of most of the more transcendentalist aspects that came with the Hermetic paradigm in favour of a more pragmatic focus on power and efficacy, so I considered it up for debate. Could you possibly recommend sources that discuss Thaumaturgy in more spiritual terms?

    Because I have an unhealthy fixation on crossover, the Path of Spirit Manipulation from Thaumaturgy and...
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  • Tzimisce, Metamorphosis, and Blood Magic

    Hello everyone! This is a bit of a follow-up on this thread, but with a more specific focus. As a side note, there was a ton of interesting discussion in there that I apparently missed, so I may bring up some points from in there in addition to the topic listed in the title. I'm not super interested in gritty mechanical details, I'm more interested in themes and philosophy, but I am primarily operating under (DA)V20 rules in case people wonder.

    I've been a big fan of the Tzimisce and the Path of Metamorphosis for a while now. And I've been contemplating possible Metamorphosist characters...
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  • Kharnov
    replied to Player Characters
    In terms of mechanics, I think the World of Darkness (not necessarily Vampire: the Masquerade) is capable of handling just about any character concept conceivable. And the flexibility of the classless system is one of the things I really like about the Storyteller system in general. As many have noted, it's just a question of distributing Attributes, Abilities, etc.

    As others have already hit on, it sounds like you're having less of a mechanical problem and more of a thematic one. I don't think the problem is necessarily that Underworld-style action isn't appropriate for VtM in general;...
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  • Comparing the "paradigms" of Mages and Sorcerers in that way is a bit of an apples-to-oranges comparison.

    Perhaps it's a reflection of not having read enough Mage source material, but it has often seemed as though becoming one of the Awakened is largely based in the determination, conviction, faith, etc., of the prospective Mage. To make your Will into Reality and overcome the Consensus, you need to REALLY believe that it's possible. To use of an example that's possibly overused but very accessible, in The Matrix when Morpheus is taking Neo through those training simulations,...
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  • It's hard to say for sure, but I would likely be a Hollow One or an Orphan who practices Chaos Magick; Everything is Chaos, with some Gods and Monsters. Perhaps a Techgnosi? What I like about Chaos Magick is that it's a mystical Paradigm that nonetheless focuses on tapping into or harnessing powers around or within us in a way that anyone can practice if they are willing to make the time and the effort, and without making any further assumptions about the One Truth of Everything.

    There are some Traditions that I do like; I might fit in decently with the Sahajiya/CoE in particular....
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  • Kharnov
    replied to Avatar and Ascension Theories
    My personal "canon" is that Ascension is basically a cosmological reproduction process, kind of like "divine mitosis." The soul of the Mage reaches a point where it is capable of generating a new Universe/Tellurian, and it flits off into the Void to do so.
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  • Kharnov
    replied to Demons, Defined
    Gryffon15

    I can definitely agree that "Corruption" of Entropy does tend to be used, in some form, as the biggest "problem of evil" in most of the World of Darkness gamelines. And I should probably concede that you're correct about most depictions of what we would describe as "demonic" being attributed to it as well; Banes, Oblivion, Nephandi, Torment.

    My concern is that we have examples of what I'm referring to as "corruption" or "taint" in non-Entropic forces, which is where that term maybe demonstrates its limits/failings...
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Kharnov
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