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  • Don't forget that there is an undefined period as a cub undergoes tutelage and prepares for his rite of passage. I've always imagined that for most homid Garou, the First Change happens in their early teens and that they are ready for their rite of passage by their late teens. So a 13 year old entering puberty changes, and is ready to be a cliath when he's 17. So even accounting for a variety of experiences as cubs, Garou probably spend 2-5 years as a cub. So combined with their spirit half, that should be plenty of time for a lupus to learn enough about humans and human language to understand...
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  • I like that a lot. It makes a lot of sense. If there is something about your blood which will not bond to others, then it's logically consistent it works both ways....
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  • I think if you are going for a situation like the animals in Bambi (the original novel, not the Disney film), Charlotte's Web, Mrs. Frisby & the Rats of NIMH, or Watership Down, that's OK. It's just enough "intelligence" in these to allow conversations and distinct personalities. But for the most part, the animals are written to behave like animals, and to have the limited understanding of animals. That is very hard to pull off, but good STs can do it.

    That gives just enough leeway that Gifts like Beast Speech can become useful. I've rarely had a PC play a lupus (OK,...
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    Last edited by Black Fox; Today, 08:56 PM. Reason: typos

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  • As for lupus coming up to speed on things like human language (or any Garou learning the Garou language) and certain aspects of human behavior, I handwave that as the lupus Garou's spirit half assisting that. Gaia knew that would be essential and made sure would happen. But it only works for the dominant local human language, and universal human behavior. And for all tribes other than the Red Talons, you even have things like having tribal Ancestor spirits that can help.

    As for people's complaints about lupus are too hard and should be restricted, I feel 90% of that are STs and...
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  • Black Fox
    replied to How do you do your Ravnos?
    I agree to a point because pagan morality was indeed different from Judeo-Christian morals. Roman moralists thought nothing about infanticide or leaving children exposed to die, and thought the Christians who would take those babies left to die by exposure were very strange. Monotheism does have philosophical implications that worked through their way into the culture.

    Still, I think most of the Path of Humanity is more or less the same. Nor do I think we need lots of individualized Paths of Humanity to reflect this culture or that culture. And ST can just wing it if needed. ...
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  • Black Fox
    replied to How do you do your Ravnos?
    Every ST brings their own assumptions and tastes into the game. At least I lay mine out and explain why. I can enjoy playing in games where the ST does have different tastes and assumption than mine. Those can still be fun. But I do expect the assumptions to be reasonable.

    As a fictional organization, there are no hard facts anyone can use to decisively use to support their side. And even canon is inconsistent because the game line and individual books were written by different people with different ideas at different times. So everyone can find plenty of things to pick and...
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  • What I'd make them depends on the needs of the game that I'm running. If it is Werewolf or some other Changing Breed, I'd be more inclined to make them spirits, fomori, or monsters (but the more obvious ones being fae, I'd keep fae). If I was running Mage, I'd be more willing to make them Bygones or Umbrood. If Changeling, many would be some sort of fae.

    There isn't any right answer. It's what you need them to be for the games you are in. You can even have "one" type of creature actually be a mix of spirits, monsters, and other things because human folklore can easily...
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  • Black Fox
    replied to How do you do your Ravnos?
    That's perfectly fine for your head canon if that's how you want to run it in your chronicles. But I feel there a lot of problems with it. This is why I wouldn't go that route in my own chronicles.

    First, we know from early canon that the Camarilla (and Sabbat) was born as a worldwide organization. Vampires from the Middle East, India, Africa, as well as Europe founded it. So the Camarilla never needed to "move" into that space. Later editions moved away from that (wrongly, in my view), but it was how the Camarilla was portrayed even in Third edition. The Gangrel Warlord...
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  • The first question is why did they reject their heritage?

    Did it just seem so strange and mysterious that they got spooked and rejected it out of panic?
    Did they witness a violent and horrific act by a Garou that caused them to be morally disgusted, or feel unsafe?
    Did they feel that Garou were being abusive in their relationship with other kinfolk, and wanted to remove themselves to be free of that abuse?
    Did they have kind of intellectual or spiritual belief that categorized the Garou religious beliefs or practices as unwholesome, evil, dangerous, or wrong?...
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  • Black Fox
    replied to How do you do your Ravnos?
    It's good to hear the changes in V5. In my own chronicles, I just have the Ashirra be a "sect" within the Camarilla that was about relatively high humanity vampires who were Muslims as mortals who are still trying to be devout/pious Muslims as vampires. The sect is basically a discussion group of how to intrepret religious laws as it relates to non-human vampires, as well as a support group to preserve their members' Humanity. Although occasionally at the local level, they may have specific interests they act to promote. That's not a problem. I imagine many vampires who struggle...
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  • Black Fox
    replied to How do you do your Ravnos?
    These three Independent Clans in particular should be small. Not every clan needs to be large or powerful. They should just have some niche to play in the setting. All three clans probably needed some amount of expansion/development from their first edition origins, but I think it was a mistake to try to make them grow out of the niche they were originally intended. It seemed to me it was an attempt to allow power gamers increased access to those clans, but not wanting to work within the structure provided.

    I think the Ravnos though were always the clan that had the least appeal...
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  • Black Fox
    replied to How do you do your Ravnos?
    The problem any time you associate a Vampire clan (or Werewolf tribe, or any other splat) with a specific real world group of people, is that it raises the question of what did that supernatural group do BEFORE that ethnicity actually existed. There's no problem with some Ravnos being associated with a certain branch embracing people from one or more families of actual Roma, or that there is Silent Strider Garou kinfolk in a particular (fictitious) branch. But since Roma are descended from a particular event that happened around 1500 years ago, these groups need to have come from other people...
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  • You do the same thing that's done for any other group of folklore creatures. Some will be Bygones. Some will be Fae. Some will be monsters. Some will be fomori. Some will be spirits. Divide them according to what makes sense for you and the particular game and chronicle you'd run. Since the same creature could plausibly be slotted into multiple of the categories above, do whatever fits best for your game.
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  • Everything you said makes sense. And it is good to compare notes on how you interpret the actions of a bound spirit, since we don't have much guidance from the materials.

    This is one of many things (like guidelines for chiminage) that deserved a prolonged section in the Storyteller's Guide, but didn't receive it.
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  • Just to confirm I understand correctly, the Exorcism broke the binding (I assume performed by a higher ranked NPC), and then the PC did a new rite of binding to bind the spirit to her?

    Where did you get the "year and a day" as I don't see anything in the rules that would support such a length of time? It is a Willpower roll to determine the length of binding, and each success is only one week. So that is ten weeks maximum in the most ideal circumstances. So the duration is far, far longer than it should be. It also raises issues as most Garou (though not all) feel binding...
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  • In my chronicles, I portray the SAD as pretty much a bigger group of the X-Files. However, they provide the bulk of recruits for a Delta Green type of conspiracy. They are combined with a much larger group of friendlies which have a de facto impact like Hellboy's BPRD (but without the superpowered people like Abe Sapien, Liz Sherman, or Johan Kraus). It's not quite the Second Inquisition as it seems to be, but provided for a much buffer group of vampire/monster hunters than was typically portrayed in earlier editions.

    Similar groups are organized in other countries that have a...
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  • Glad you liked it. I have one major one that I use as a semi-rival to the Tremere as a major faction within the Camarilla. They know a lot of the Paths originally reported in Revised era's Guide to the Camarilla. And there are lesser ones that I mainly use as ad hoc groups to interact with PCs which are more likely to teach them one or two of the commonly known Paths, IF the PCs are willing to play ball.

    I didn't like the fact that as the game developed, practically everyone outside the non-Tremere Camarilla Clans had access to thaumaturgy. This was my response to restore balance....
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  • Ghouls don't actually have Disciplines and can't learn them. The powers of the blood simply boost their physical stats in a way that giving them the Disciplines Potence, Fortitude, and Celerity (up to one rank) is a good mechanic to show it. Just like Lupine stats show them as having "Disciplines", ghouls are the same way. To learn Disciplines, you need to be a vampire.

    Tzimisce have Protean, not Vicissitude. (Something of a relic now that I hear V5 has done something similar). There are a strange breed of Necroscope style "vampires" that Kindred know about...
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  • Depending on what you are trying to accomplish, you could use Etiquette, Empathy, Expression, Intimidation, or Subterfuge. All could work on convincing someone, depending on the circumstances.

    I am not familiar with the terms Callow or Kenning, but I am assuming you mean taking someone who is Kinfolk but ignorant about the Garou and the supernatural in general, and making them not only aware of the supernatural, but also favorable to the Garou.

    There a wide variety of tactics that could be used, all depending on the circumstances. However, I think in general, you would...
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  • You can certainly bind a spirit to an object/location like an oak tree, but it seems like the service you are asking from it is to teach werewolves who politely ask for its help/advice/knowledge. In practical terms, that might allow the ST to drop some plot information if he deems it is something the spirit knows, or provides the flavor text basis for spending XP in an appropriate knowledge category (like Enigmas).

    But that seems fairly limited. The spirit shouldn't get any additional powers it does not already have. So the spirit presumably is in the Penumbra, and does not necessarily...
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Black Fox
Black Fox
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Last Activity: Today, 08:57 PM
Joined: 05-18-2014
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