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  • I assume Red Talons see any domesticated animals as "traitors". I don't think they see the animals as guilty - they know they're just animals and don't have choice - but they see domestication as a perversion enabled by the Weaver or Wyrm, and feel a mix of anger and sadness at such animals, and hate humans even more for it. But dogs especially, since they are often the enemies of wolves - protecting the flock and helping human hunters.
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  • This is true. When designing an RPG, you must have a compelling basis for PCs to get together and do things together. For the most part, I think Werewolf succeeded in it. However, I do think it could have done a better job of matching their version to popular expectations. I don't think it requires that much change in presentation. There were some elements in first edition material, but instead of building upon them in second edition, they actually discarded them.



    I won't speak to the mechanics except in general while I like the World of Darkness setting, I've always...
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  • Black Fox
    replied to Circle of Red
    Thanks. I'll check with some friends to see if they have a copy. Since that is a relatively late addition to the game, I suspect it'll have nothing to do with the original conception of the Circle of Red, but simply used as a name drop for something brand new (like how it's described in the Dark Ages line). I think earlier references in the game lines are "more reliable" resources for what was actually intended for the Circle of Red. But it might have some good information. I'll add it to my list of references.

    Thanks!
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  • I think this is mostly a case of the writers not bothering to think about consequences. It's like how many NPCs's Humanity ratings don't seem to reflect their descriptions. Or how a werewolf's Rage and the associated Curse don't reflect their involvement with ordinary people. Not giving thought to the Gangrel weakness is one of those - except for a few characters where the writer emphasized that trait.

    At some point you just go, "OK, the writer doesn't know what he's doing. Here's what I'm going to do..."...
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  • I would think the general depiction of the war is actually one of prolonged, but sporadic conflicts that flare up from time to time, but with long periods of peace in between. During those flare ups, the Shadow Lords slaughter the vampire neonates, the vampire elders hide, and the Shadow Lords proclaim victory and go home, and the surviving vampire elders get even more powerful.

    For the Shadow Lords, victory is killing lots and lots of vampires. And they probably do kill a lot of neonates and some ancilla. For the vampire elders, victory is accomplishing whatever end goal they...
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  • I was reading a book on fairy folklore recently and it mentioned reports of "fairy battles". Usually there was some natural event that reminded people of a battle - such as the color red suddenly appearing in the wilderness (due to a certain kind of fungus or mold) that looked like blood, or mass die off of insects.

    So that sparked a scenario where I think packs of Stag could really come in handy. A time when the Near Dreaming is in constant warfare. So the fae are fighting themselves, and there's lot of warbands and banditry as a result. The fae who are normally keeping...
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    Last edited by Black Fox; 07-03-2020, 04:46 AM.

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  • A Lunatic is a Garou who represses the Change. They resist their primal urging and don't transform, but at the cost of becoming mentally ill from repressing the beast inside them. Some times this can result in them snapping and killing people. Much of the first edition supplement Valkenburg Foundation is about them and takes place in an institute where they can be treated. It is possible to help Lunatics realize what they are and help them transform and accept that they are Garou. But others never get better and remain trapped in one form, though it may be possible for them to adjust in staying...
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  • The WoD games took a wrong turn somewhere in the mid to late nineties when they adopted a kind of modern day multiculturalism approach to the supernatural. Wraiths all of a sudden used different mechanics (as opposed to in-character different interpretations of existing mechanics) if they came from Africa or elsewhere. Instead of using one baseline, that could have different interpretations, for all the kinds of "invisible people" every culture around the world had, we now had entirely different types of creatures depending on whether they were based on legends in Europe, North America,...
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  • I like the Thrall of the Wyrm as a potential risk that will somehow taint the Garou. That discourages having too much Rage, or at least not balancing it out with sufficient Willpower.

    However, I share some of the other posters' queasiness at how it is written in the game. Every player will have their own comfort level with the subject matter. For some, it is just best to fade to black and state something generic like "you've done something abominable" and move on. Others like to delight in excess. Not every horror fan likes movies like Texas Chainsaw Massacre or the...
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  • As others have commented, actual werewolf folklore isn't based on curse or infections. Instead, werewolves are petty magicians who have been given some kind of magical device (usually from the Devil) to turn into a wolf so they can prey on the livestock of their neighbors and torment their fellow man. The curse/infection angle comes almost entirely from 20th century movies inspired by the werewolf legends.

    However, simply replace "folklore and beliefs" with "pop culture" and your statement holds up well. I think some of the criticizing commenters should keep...
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  • I think you brought up a good point, but most of these already have answers. Or in cases where there's not, it's much easier to explain.

    First, the decline of the Pure Ones is well established in the game. It's part of the general lore that they lost an entire third of their numbers when the Croatan perished fighting the Eater-of-Souls. We also know that from history lots of diseases greatly reduced the Native American populations. That was going to have some kind of impact to the Uktena and Wendigo Garou at some point, and there isn't much they can do to bring back the dead....
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  • So the next point I'd like to discuss is the idea of Garou "guardians" being appointed over kinfolk. Previous posters have posted something like this, and I've seen this used in various online games. I think there are different terms that can be used, but I think the concept is more or less the same.

    I think this is an important issue for a couple of reasons.

    First, this is essentially an issue of a Garou claiming control over kinfolk. So this is something most Garou will do in order to get a mate. Or perhaps adopt kinfolk into their family. It can also...
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  • I prefer this kind of style too, and it's one of the house rule changes to W20 I made. The way I run it is if you fail, you don't detect pre-change Garou as Garou. You think they are kinfolk. Or you think a kinfolk is a pre-Change Garou. If you botch it, somehow it fails that for everyone until at some point post-puberty it resets. There's not necessarily a cause-and-effect relationship there. I just want to avoid "shotgunning" situations where people could theoretically keep testing until they get it right. The "botch" simply means something has gone wrong. And there...
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  • My gaming group and I only picked features of one animal with the notion in our minds that eventually the vampire would turn into that animal if she had enough frenzies over the centuries. It was always a wolf although I think we all would have been fine if someone picked another animal that was iconic to vampires. A bat would probably have been fine - based on the costume makeup of the man-bat hybrid of Gary Oldman in '92's Dracula. Rats could also have been accepted. But I only remember wolves. If a character would have been from a homeland that did not have wolves, but had some other major...
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  • Except they didn't. Because if every Garou sept protected the wolves in their own protectorates, then the modern wolf population would adhere closely to their historic range, but it doesn't. It's not simply that the wolf population became lower. They were extirpated completely from major portions of where they once lived.

    This is from Wikipedia Commons:


    (And I think some of that green is excessive due to lack of data. Russia has a lot of the wolf population, but I doubt wolf packs cover the entire country like that - are there really wolves in the Moscow and...
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  • Actually animals cause other animals to go extinct all the time. Usually that is the case of invasive species that humans brought with them, but in other cases when an animal population are able to travel to a new land itself, the same result occurs. Cats, for example, have wiped out many species of birds and small animals particularly on islands and Australia. Discarded Burmese Pythons are doing the same in the Everglades.

    This generally occurs when a predator is introduced that native animals didn't evolve with, and they lack the natural defenses. But sometimes it's a non-predator...
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  • I always took it that the Thirst was not constant. So once you fed, you were satiated for a while - perhaps depending on how the generation of the vampire and how long the vampire had lived. That may last you a while before the Thirst again compels you to feed on another vampire. In the meantime, normal feeding was possible.

    As an ST, I would rule this would be something that accelerates over time - that the Methusaleh must feed again quicker and quicker. At the time of Gehenna, they'd be devouring their children left and right because that's what supposed to happen.
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  • I personally don't think corporations should have Incarna. Very few truly last long enough to develop a distinct spiritual presence in my opinion. At least cities and nations can be around for hundreds or thousands of years. The average lifespan of a large S&P500 corporation is only a few decades, and that is shrinking all the time. Those business that do last a significant amount of time are usually small private (family owned) businesses that can change with the times because they are small and flexible. And they are very, very rare. And even if one believes those companies should...
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  • Certainly the Garou were able to protect some of the wolf population and establish hidden pockets of wolves that escaped the hunters, especially in remote wilderness areas. But I don't think that noticeably affects the setting. Saying only 85% of the wolf population was wiped out instead of 90% doesn't materially change things.

    The way I see it, we have two options.

    The first option is that the Garou resisted the extermination of the wolves. They left a huge pile of killed wolf hunters, but they lost anyway. The Garou were defeated. I don't like this option for several...
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  • Since this is now talking about ways to develop the tribe, I'll link to a thread I started years ago on "heretical thoughts" about Griffin and the Red Talons. It didn't present a cohesive alternate to the tribe. Instead, it discussed aspects of myth and legend surrounding Griffin, and how that could be used to give the tribe more depth and increase playability. So it was discussion of options that players and STs may want to consider when using the tribe. The thread got derailed at the end, but I know many people found the first few pages helpful.

    I've certainly used...
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Black Fox
Black Fox
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Last Activity: Today, 01:58 AM
Joined: 05-18-2014
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