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  • Lord Revan
    replied to Scientific mystic
    First of all, thanks for all the constructive coments.


    Yeah, I wasn’t clear. The product is the change. So the universe can exist without life. But only consciousness can shape it like mages do.


    Nowehere is said that the mage must believe exactly as is said in the paradigm text. And even if that were the case, Evertything is Chaos do not state that Reality is created by human minds. The Chaos of his paradigms comes from the uncertainty that the enlightened mind can generate. The universe can be twisted like a “Etch-a-Sketch” by those who understand...
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  • Lord Revan
    replied to Scientific mystic
    He do believe in sleeper science principles. I made that very clear. He is a proud engineer and he doesn't believe the universe i wish fulfilment of the strong. He just believes that consciousness, Will, etc. is able to affect reality, to change it. The laws of physics all work as he knows, except when some enlightened mind do something to bend them.
    He do not believe Reality itself is created by Chaos or Consciousness. Just that it can be shaped by them.



    All the magick comes from energy, which were tapped by the devices. This energy is directed/manipulated by...
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  • Lord Revan
    replied to Scientific mystic
    Ambrosia excellent description of the practice!
    Note how it is kinda opposite to the classical Hermetic HR user (full of fixed meanings and rigid rules) stereotype, and yet it is in their used practices list.

    Five Eyes, I can see that this is a very open practice, that almost anyone could use or adapt to their paradigm.
    Like Ambrosia said, it is completely related to the belief in beliefs (Nothing is true, everything is permitted) and I see that it fits nicely in the char paradigm.
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  • Lord Revan
    replied to Scientific mystic
    They are quite similar. You mean someting more like a sketch notebook with ideas/equations instead of writing an academic book? I prefer to keep books instead writing and add this "study" as part of the instrument.



    I see. Could an Etherite (or even technocrat) use Chaos Magick? how would that be?...
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  • Lord Revan
    replied to Scientific mystic
    Yes, the Order is very full of themselves, which I like. I believe that, and we're on the realm of opinions here, that it depends on the particular mage that is going to affiliate the Order. If he's going to the Order it's because he has at least some of their traits/beliefs. A Chorister that has absolutely nothing in common to the Order would probably not be accepted.
    Now, if he shares some beliefs (maybe angels and demons) and traits (determined,studious) he is going to need just some lessons. The more important thing is how he approach magick. The Chorister would have to lose the begging...
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  • Lord Revan
    replied to Scientific mystic
    Well, Chaos Magick is not symbolic, it is belief driven, so you might use symbolism or not. It include energy raising and directing and can accommodate almost any belief.
    So, it has energy, it has power in belief and is open enough. That's why I got it. Also, it is the glue that link the paradigm ro the instruments. The fact that consciousness (belief) afect reality using energy. Together with the other practices I think it fits.
    What you mean by not in any instrument and how would you change that?



    Law of atraction (As above, so bellow) is something I would...
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  • Lord Revan
    replied to Scientific mystic
    We are not talking about a talented student. It's a fully Awakened mage. He is not going to learn goetia and theurgy anymore (it's not possible nor needed).
    The books have no words on already Awakened mage entering the Order. I'm pretty sure he might get some training in linguistics, history of the Order and the Code of Hermes, as well as getting a Word and True Name. But I don't believe he would go through all the training as if were a sleeper.
    Imagine a Chorister with Arete 4, and several Shperes with 3-4 dots that joins the Order for whatever reason. They might teach the basics...
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  • Lord Revan
    replied to Scientific mystic
    Yeah, that's why I said 5-6 practices, being 3 of them HR,Alchemy and Dominion and the others the ones the character will really use. That makes no sense. Mage is a very limitless game, limiting a char this way seems wrong to me.
    He would definitely have Esoterica, probably with (body control).



    Ok, I could describe it even more. And I disagree about the meaningless terminology (they are used often in the books), but I'll try to do it without them.

    Indeed, there are like 3 instruments that I chose that were not very well described and could be enhanced...
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    Last edited by Lord Revan; 11-26-2019, 10:21 PM.

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  • Lord Revan
    replied to Scientific mystic
    I would agree with you in the case of the Syndicate you posted. He is a great candidate, but his beliefs are completely opposite of what a mage (moreso Hermetic) believe. He would indeed need some tweaks from his master. Now I also agree that my char would also need some (even minors) tweaks, since he do share some traits.
    I'd say he would learn Hermetic history, laws, rules and possibly some magickal concepts like getting a Word. But go into full training? Aboslutely not. He doesn't even can train like an new apprentice since he's already awakened and goetia/theurgia is sleeper sorcery....
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  • Lord Revan
    replied to Scientific mystic
    Yes, the Etherite can fit, but won't be well received there nor would had the "mage" aspect.
    As I posted I wanted a "mage" with heavy sleeper science influence .

    About the Order, I believe that I made a good case in my last post. Please feel free to opine and answer too. For your post I only say ask: do you really believe that Hermetics char are limited to those 3 practices or having 5-6 (which is not good)?...
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  • Lord Revan
    replied to Scientific mystic
    Again, you’re mistaken. It is very rare that 2 mages have the exactly same paradigm. There are lots of different beliefs inside a single Tradition. You also seem to be too rigid about their training. Knowledge comes in many ways and Hermetics seems to praise all kinds (the books don’t even restrict to magickl knowledge). Also, what is knowledge for one mage might be bullshit for another, this is dependent of paradigm and we know this happens in any Tradition.
    Again, a Tradition is nothing more than an organized group that share the same concept in a broad way. You just have to match...
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  • Lord Revan
    replied to Scientific mystic
    So, the Hermetic proceeds to spend years of painful training and study of HR,Alchemy and Dominion just to learn them and then, after having this knowledge, he drops all this shit and goes training martial arts?

    So, in order to not completely restrict Hermetics to those 3 practices you habe two options, or he picks another one and blend it into those 3, having a total of 4, which is very confusing and unrealistic. Or you forget all that study and pick 1-3 new practices, which is also unrealistic and might end up with 6 practices.



    Yes, I know and understand...
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  • Lord Revan
    replied to Scientific mystic
    I think we shouldn't be so serious about that entry in M20. Otherwise all Hermetics would use just HR,Alchemy and dominion. This would leave no room for character development, as you can get as much as 3 practices.
    Also, aside from that single frase, there is no evidence that all Hermetics have to use those practices other than the description of apprenticeship in trad book (when focus worked completely differently).
    I'd say it's like saying Akashics have to have Do. The majority do, but if you match their mindset you will be welcomed in the Tradition.
    The core of Hermetic belief...
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  • Lord Revan
    replied to Scientific mystic
    [QUOTE=Five Eyes;n1350306]I'm of the opinion that no Hermetic gets out of their apprenticeship without learning the core of the Hermetic style, as learning the three types of magic "in proper order" is seen as important. As the RevTradBook notes that even Ex Misc, where all the weirdos are, funnels everyone through the high ritual practice, I see no reason to think the example Tytalus athlete is somehow not using the usual Hermetic instruments and practices. This accords with the style described in the prior material and in the Rev corebook, and with M20's entry.[/uqote]

    ...
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  • Lord Revan
    replied to Scientific mystic
    Of course they do! Even simple, obvious and old theories like Newton's Gravitational Force has some degree of complexity in its explanation and mathematics equations. Something as incredible as telekinesis surely will be very complex to study and understand.
    Of course that I, as a player, do not have to bring complex explanations or equations, but the character as a Scientist would. Unless he's a shitty Scientist..or a mage.

    Imagine he's first presenting to the Etherites:

    - Ok, you say you are able to create fire just by the use of your mind, how does it works?...
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  • Lord Revan
    replied to Scientific mystic
    Five Eyes, yes, those are their foundations. Do that means that no hermetic exists without that practices? While M20 says so, rev and trad books put more focus on Will than specifics practices. Afterall, not all Hermetics go through all the training frombthe beginning, a mage can awake, learn about magick and join the Tradition later. Also, we have the example of the Olympian in trad book that uses his body as a focus. I know it is loosely explained and have room to shove alchemy or HR in his concept, but nevertheless he isn't the usual Hermetic.

    About their view on others, I thougth...
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  • Lord Revan
    replied to Scientific mystic
    I think he do not. His music is a focus of his Art, this is quite clear. He considers it a sacred art, not the same as The Art. He can play music and do nothing with magick. They are not the same thing. They are related, though. Also, I think this one does not use mathematics, even though Pytagoras is briefly cited....
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  • Lord Revan
    replied to Scientific mystic
    There are some beliefs that all Hermetics share, some that most Hermetics share and some that are very individual particular. I'd say that The fact that magick is a result of your Will being manifested is common to all Hermetics. Maybe True Names are used by most of them. And there are lots of things that each individual believe that makes them different. It's the case of tha Quaesitor example you gave about music. It's something that isn't part of Hermetic philosophy, but it isn't wrong or bad believing. As long as the mage share some belief, specially the more fundamental ones, it's ok.
    ...
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  • Lord Revan
    replied to Scientific mystic
    I disagree. I understand Will as true Will, the desire of the mage casting the effect. While the Etherites Will is in fact affecting the outcome (that's the truth in Mage), they do not hold it as part of the effect anymore than the guy that created a radio and turned it on. Of course, you have to understand the radio to make it play songs, give it to a chimp and it would play only statics. But it is not the Will of the Scientist that is making it play, it's the science behind the radio working.
    That's not how Hermetics view magick. You can't explain to someone how a wand works and that person...
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  • Lord Revan
    replied to Scientific mystic
    Yes, I am. But i find it quite unnecessary. And I am discussing about the view of the Traditions and the char, not only mechanics....
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Lord Revan
Lord Revan
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