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  • I think 'bogus' is a strong word. It is artificial, but it is how some wolves act when they are forced to make packs outside of familial groups. I think there are parallels to be made with how Garou packs often form. Someone will naturally take charge and others will fall in.

    That being said, I think the idea of an 'alpha' is still somewhat overstated in a lot of people's minds (as your Times link shows, yikes). Alphaship (alphahood?) is instinctive and fluid in WtA. W20 did a reasonably good job of presenting it as whoever is best for the task of the moment should lead the pack,...
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    Last edited by The Laughing Stranger; Today, 11:01 AM.

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  • Ugh, no thanks. I like my Werewolf the Apocalypse to actually have an Apocalypse. WtA isn't about endless war, it is about a fundamental imbalance in heaven that threatens to overwhelm creation. The Wyrm (or the Weaver, in a not-so surprising upset) may easily win, forever; the earth won't recover if Her soul and children are killed....
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  • I think it is funny- l laughed at the Glasswalker and Fianna characterizations!
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  • I have thought about it; I am not rejecting the idea out of hand. I dislike the idea not because it is heterodoxy, I dislike it because it turns an auspicious event into a random thing.


    Besides, even if we discount the Perfect Metis, one of the defining traits of the Metis is their inability to breed: they are cursed by dint of their parent's sin. If this powerful symbol of Gaia's displeasure can be overcome by a random quirk of genetics, it lessens the sting of even being a Metis and discounts the mystic nature of the WtA universe.
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    Last edited by The Laughing Stranger; 04-25-2017, 12:24 PM.

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  • Which, as wonderandawe stated, kind of undermines the nature of eschatological prophecy. You can disregard that, and have Metis-mating sometimes result in freak pregnancies, but what purpose does that serve? It just means that the Perfect Metis doesn't matter and/or isn't really a thing. Maybe that is fine for your game, but I don't really see how it benefits the setting as a whole....
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    Last edited by The Laughing Stranger; 04-25-2017, 11:48 AM.

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  • I think what Ana is getting at is that you are sorta comparing apples and oranges, in that horse/donkey hybrids aren't Metis. Biologically speaking, sure, weird things can happen and mules can occasionally breed. In WtA, though, it should take more than just a quirk of genetics for a Metis to have kids. When the First Metis has a child, it actually is a sign of the Apocalypse; it isn't the sort of thing that just happens for no reason other than odd luck....
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    Last edited by The Laughing Stranger; 04-24-2017, 04:42 PM.

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  • Hmmm... AGC sounds like a smaller scale, Stasis-aligned Pentex. Interesting.

    You know what have traits that could easily be mistaken for super soldiers? Drones. I could see the process of becoming a drone presented as a good thing- Gold and his people are helping damaged vets return to the battlefield and keep fighting for America's freedom... the fact that they have had their souls eaten by Mother Spider is neither here nor there.

    Alternatively, maybe Gold's operation has stumbled upon a process that makes Drone-like things, but it isn't perfect. In places where the...
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  • Eh, the plot is very similar to something DNA might do... you effectively just changed DNA's name to AGC. Both are evil corporations intent on exploiting the Garou through whatever means necessary. If you want a new group that is expressly not DNA, you might want to differentiate them further, rather than have them piggy-back off of DNA's findings and then engage in the same skullduggery.


    Straight-up snatching people can be fine, but for real trials they will likely need a fair few subjects. Also, how well can you screen your junkies and mad street-preachers if you are just...
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  • This is a significant logical leap. Owning a casino and insider trading are not the same, either in reality or in the sight of the law; I am not sure why they would be equivalent for humanity purposes either....
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  • Agree. 'A Tribe Falls' features cases where the various tribes throw the baby out with the bathwater and accidentally become the thing they hate most. If you want that to happen via Koldunic hijinks, great, but that doesn't mean such catastrophic failure is merely 'business as usual' for the tribe of Thunder....
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  • Whoops, I meant Great Beasts, not Bygones (I don't even play mage, lol).

    It just seems like you are saying 'those weird animals don't count, because they are made up whole-cloth, and those other weird animals don't count because WW was scientifically inaccurate.' White Wolf might have gotten sloppy at points, no arguments there, but this is starting to seem like a No True Scotsman situation. All of the examples of made-up animals I can point to you could handwave as being supernatural by dint of their not-existing in the real world and/or WW shitting the bed and included them because...
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  • This isn't really accurate either. Wild West is full of animals that don't exist in the real world, like howlers, chupacabras, jackalopes and texas tarantulas. It has pterosaurs living in the canyons of Arizona. Does that harm the setting? The things aren't bygones, they don't have magic powers, they are flesh and blood beings that are just weird as hell. They make over-sized direwolves look tame by comparison.

    If you want more realism in your game, fine, but don't treat this as being anything other than your highly scientific (and in my opinion, overly rigorous) standard....
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  • Maybe these caecilians *are* venomous. I don't see why strict adherence to real-world facts is such a sticking point- the real world isn't even WoD. In a setting with werewolves and chupacabras and walking dead, there might just be blind amphibian critters that possess envenomed bites, and maybe they magically turn into people sometimes.

    Again, maybe not your cup of tea, but hardly the unparalleled biological impossibility that you seem to think it is. Heck, biologically impossible creatures are in the setting- I hardly think coming up with a tweaked species of amphibian is inapp...
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    Last edited by The Laughing Stranger; 04-14-2017, 10:25 AM.

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  • This right here. The vampires of the Carpathians and the Shadow Lords are ancient, bitter enemies. I can't imagine Thunder or his sons suffering one of the living dead among them, much less a spirit-enslaving Koldun.

    The 'spirits of the earth' like Kupala that the Tzimisce entreat with are uniformly presented as banes in WtA crossovers... I think it makes a lot of sense that spiritually dead vampires are blind to most of the vibrant, living spirit world. The undead approach to the umbra is inherently imbalanced....
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  • In what way would an archid caecilian not look like a dragon? Get rid of this thing's colorful scales and eyes and coat it in petroleum jelly and bam, that is pretty much what I'd imagine a caecilian warform to look like. Slimy blind dragon monsters.

    That said, if the idea isn't people's cup of tea, fine, whatever, I get that; I am not gonna put a were-caecilian in my game any time soon. Maybe Nagah would be a better fit, if they were supposed to be anything at all. All I am saying is rejecting an idea out of hand because it doesn't fit modern sensibilities of what it officially means...
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  • This also keeps the Garou's purpose clear. The task of the loyal changing breeds is already monumental- why add onto that by requiring the defense of other, distant Gaias? Which Gaia is more deserving of protection? What if whatever alien being is defending the foreign Gaia thinks their ways is better? It could be interesting, but I think it all would get confusing pretty quick.

    If you are dead-set on featuring other planets that support life and are not 'of the Wyrm,' I would likely treat them as all belonging to the same over-arching Gaia. The children who purport to serve her might...
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    Last edited by The Laughing Stranger; 04-13-2017, 09:15 PM.

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  • Now you are stretching your own definitions. Birds are not reptiles. There are significant differences between the two (true flight/patagia, warmblooded/cold, ect). I don't care about that, but it hardly seems sporting to say that birds and reptiles are equivalent but amphibians are completely off the table.

    I doubt having a caecilian were-creature is as problematic or inconsistent as you make it out to be. Maybe such beings are the reason other varnas are capable of manifesting similar amphibious traits... I know that there are significant biological differences between an amphibian...
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  • Within the context of an animistic universe, I think rigid adherence to modern classification is a bit overrated. Gaia doesn't care what box we put caecilians or worms or dinosaurs in.

    The thing I linked is actually an extinct proto-caecilian... which wasn't a reptile either; but I think it is worth considering.since taxonomic precision matters relatively little WtA and we are talking about were-dragons, some of which get confused for Wyrm-monsters. Lots of far-flung species have ended up under the Mokole banner, after all. If Thylacines can be Garou, why couldn't an Eocaecilia-like...
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    Last edited by The Laughing Stranger; 04-13-2017, 05:16 PM.

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  • The largest lizard species is the Green Iguana. That doesn't strike me as particularly wild choice, though. Jesus lizards are weird and interesting (they're the ones capable of running across water thanks to the miracle of surface tension). Turtle shifters are kinda sorta supposed to be dead and gone, I guess, but the Amazon is a big place, and lots of unusual creatures haven't been discovered yet. Maybe some of the Ao still live. If they do, a Mata Mata would make a terrific breed form for such a werebeast. Alternatively, something like a Caecilian shifter would be a very strange and alien thing...
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    Last edited by The Laughing Stranger; 04-13-2017, 03:13 PM.

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  • Both Uktena and Bat were hinted to be servants of the Wyrm, back before the Destroyer was ensnared and driven insane by the Weaver. I think those original spirits that used to serve the Wyrm have jumped ship in favor of other patrons (Uktena, for example, serves Gaia now), or they have long since been corrupted. The aforementioned Great Serpent, rumored to be an Avatar of the Balance Wyrm, may be one of a kind: a spirit of the primordial Wyrm that has not been forced to change or adapt since the Triat was unbalanced.

    If there are other examples of such creatures in the books, I can't...
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The Laughing Stranger
The Laughing Stranger
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Last Activity: Today, 11:01 AM
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