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[AkatsukiLeader13]

Honestly has there actually been any word on them doing any of the other splats? Outside of video games, I haven't heard anything since Paradox first purchased WW about the other game lines....

[AkatsukiLeader13]

Except there's a problem with that, it is the only origin story (save for the Setite take on it) that we got. So it is effectively the truth for us because we don't have much of anything in regards to alternate origin stories to oppose it within VtM.

It doesn't help that the now non-canon Gehenna treated the Caine story as truth in all it's scenarios.

If they wanted VtM to have unclear origins for vampires they could have done so just as easily as they did in VtR. The problem is that they only ever present the Caine Myth as the origin of Cainite vampires and it has...

[AkatsukiLeader13]

Actually scratch that. Leopold was destroyed while the Eye ended up in Hesha's hands where Beckett got it before returning it to Hazimel.

[AkatsukiLeader13]

Except there's a problem with that. The Eye of Hazimel and the events of the Clan Novels which happened after the Week of Nightmares as it mentions the encounters several characters like Hesha and Ramona and had with the Eye during the novels. In fact, it straight up brings up Leopold from the novels who used it the most there. The only change seems to be that it wasn't destroyed. Further it ultimately ends up in Beckett's hands and he returns it to Hazimel, awakening him from Torpor....

[AkatsukiLeader13]

Wait... Was it confirmed that Hazimel was Beckoned? While Hazimel did appear in BJD and departed for parts unknown, he was specifically looking for his fellow 4th Gen Ravnos, Marizhavashti Kali, to oppose Ravana (not [Ravnos] but another one of his Childer, one that had turned to Infernalism). There's nothing to suggest that he was Beckoned like others were. And given that [Ravnos] is dead, what could Beckon a 4th Gen Ravnos like Hazimel?

I mean we don't really know much of anything about the Beckoning and what's causing it. We know the Hecata are immune to it though we're not...

[AkatsukiLeader13]

Taking a quick glance at the Setite you are correct in that regard but remember the Clanbooks are present from the perspective of the Clan in question and their outlook on other Clans can be incorrect and biased. Look at the Gangrel and Werewolves. A common myth for those outside the Clan is that Gangrels have dealings with Werewolves and are only vampires that they will talk with, however the truth is that they don't.

Again, the Ravnos Clanbook itself expresses that they aren't as dead as everyone else thinks and given that said book is from the Clan's point of view I put stock...

[AkatsukiLeader13]

The problem with that is that pretty much as soon as they did the Week of Nightmares, they immediately started backtracking on the destruction of the Ravnos. Again, the Rev Ed Clan Book took the stance of that while the Clan has suffered a heavy blow, reports of the Clan's destruction are overblown.

And I will admit that if that turns out to be the case in V5, where the Ravnos still exist as a Clan and having been using their supposed destruction as a smokescreen to protect themselves, I will retract my comments and give a nod to the devs. But the problem is, with everything I've...

[AkatsukiLeader13]

True but that doesn't change the fact that they have effectively destroyed one of the Thirteen Clans by turning them into Caitiff. And this not a Salubri/Tremere or Cappadocian/Giovanni/Hecata situation where the original Clan was usurped and replaced. They have DESTROYED one of the Thirteen Clans, meaning that there are only Twelve Clans now. And they've largely done so off screen as even the Rev Ed Ravnos were still a Clan. Especially the Rev Ed Clan Book that had them as far from being doomed which was over twenty years ago. And I'm sure someone would bring up the Second Inquisition and...

[AkatsukiLeader13]

Funny enough, they technically did bring back the Tremere Antitribu with the return of House Goratrix in V5. And if I remember right, they even implied that some of the Antitribu never actually died.

An Antitribu Bloodline that was wiped out and could have easily been replaced by a new faction in the broken Tremere Pyramid gets brought back but one of the original 13 Clans that got hit hard over twenty years ago and even back then wasn't wiped out and had home far removed from much of the other Clans and Sects, is now wiped out.

Because that makes all the sense....

[AkatsukiLeader13]

I know, hence the cynical part of me dreading that they've all been turned into Caitiff...

Especially after Rev and V20 did so much to revise the Clan and present them in a far, far better light. But of course, that's not as meme-able as the old racist stereotypes so it gets forgotten about and so the higher-ups that barely understand the game look at the old stereotypes and look at today's social climate and just decide to discard them, cover them up and pretend they never existed. Which is frustrating to long timers like myself (even though Ravnos wouldn't be in my top five Clans)...

[AkatsukiLeader13]

While that's good to hear, I do have to admit that the cynical part of me dreads that the Ravnos will get turned into Caitiff after hearing that her Clan is listed as Caitiff....

[AkatsukiLeader13]

This is actually pretty close to my canon in my V20 games. The Hungry Ghost/Wan Kuei/Ki-jin/whatever are not bound solely to India and Eastern Asia cultures and faiths, anyone can become one, anywhere. There are regions where they are more likely to rise (and said regions are spreading, though no one is entirely sure why) such as India and Eastern Asia. And even if the Cainites could wipe out the Wan Kuei, more would inevitably rise.

In fact, some that rise in Cainite and overcome their initial freak or maintain control of themselves, get mistaken for Caitiff. And of course those...

[AkatsukiLeader13]

The cynical part of me thinks that they are saying 'We don't have any plans for them and don't want to touch them but if enough people complain and someone pitches something, we might do them.'

I mean they talk about the global metaplot. Why wouldn't Eastern Asia be a part of that? It is home to big chunk of the planet's population and home to several important nations on the planet. Yeah, India they can still do through the lens of the Ravnos and the Indian Bloodlines but that would still be missing the rest of the region and omitting the fact the Indian Cainites have long been...

[AkatsukiLeader13]

As I've said before, the Giovanni liked their independence from the Sect, not just for the freedom they had from the Sects but also because it was profitable for them to hire out their services not just to the Camarilla but the Sabbat and Anarchs as well. Something the Hecata is continuing. Hell, they even have an advantage in that most outsiders aren't aware that the other Necromancer Bloodlines have joined them or even aware of the existence of said Bloodlines. The Harbinger section talks about some of their members using that ignorance to infiltrate Camarilla/Anarch courts.

...

[AkatsukiLeader13]

It's much more complicated than that. First off, the Giovanni are still around and still in a position of power. As I previously mentioned, the Giovanni, Harbingers and Samedi are the three most numerous and powerful Bloodlines in the Clan (unsurprising given that if the Hecata have a scared number, it's three as three repeats many times through the chapter and their Clan). And on a sidenote while the Dunsirn, Pisanob and Putanesca have been made into independent Bloodlines within the Clan, the Milliners are still part of the Giovanni. Further, not all Giovanni Elders were killed, some survived...

[AkatsukiLeader13]

Well we're not even sure if Augustus was diablerized or simply destroyed. Certainly at least some of the Harbingers believed a bit of old Cappadocius was inside him and if they were present for his death, they would not want anyone diablerizing Augustus and getting that fragment in them.

The manuscript does bring up the Capuchin and how he's an important adviser to the Hecata and possibly the defacto leader of the Clan. Of course it doesn't shed any light as to who the Capuchin is, whether it be Lazarus, Japheth or as V20 presented it, the trio of Lazarus, Japheth and Byzar....

[AkatsukiLeader13]

Cappadocius needed Augustus to be his Judas, to be his executioner as part of his insane scheme to diablerize God. And given what V20 and V5 has said about the Harbingers, I now firmly believe that the destruction of his own was part of that as the Feast of Folly gutted the Cappadocians of their more martially or espionage inclined members, reducing their ability to defend themselves from the Giovanni.

Also, as I said before it wasn't just that the Harbingers were mad at the Giovanni for stealing their vengeance but that Augustus and the Giovanni Elders were puppets to Cappadocius...

[AkatsukiLeader13]

I knew Dawkins didn't like them but that is depressing if true. The Wan Kuei while having issues, brought something different and interesting to the table. People over on the Storyteller's Vault have done some interesting work on them. I refuse to believe that the Wan Kuei cannot be done well without having to throw everything out and starting from scratch.

For that matter, why does the base concept of a soul escaping Hell to crawl back into their corpse and finding purpose in that new existence require it to be thrown out to begin with?...

[AkatsukiLeader13]

It's a complicated matter. As I and others said, the Giovanni weren't just hit by the Harbingers and the Second Inquisition but by their own Childer as well. Again, the younger Giovanni were beginning to chafe under the rigid structure of the Clan and the iron-grip on power the Elder Giovanni had. This pushed them to reaching out to reaching out to the other Clans of Death, looking for lore and power. This in turn provided allies for the Harbingers within the Giovanni and of course as I mentioned, there was Elder manipulations going on in this. And the Capuchin's fingerprints are all over...

[AkatsukiLeader13]

They didn't join the Camarilla for two reasons. First the Giovanni rather enjoyed their nearly five hundred years of freedom from the Cam and didn't want to lose their autonomy. Second, the Cappadocian and Harbinger wings of the Clan are bitter over the Cam turning a blind eye to the purges the Giovanni conducted.

As for your questions, with the exception of the Nagajara and possibly the Samedi, they are descended on the same blood. The event that saw the birth of the Hecata is the Family Reunion. While we only get scraps on the Reunion itself, it comes across as event like the Convention...