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  • Actually in V20, the destruction of relic-Enoch did not happen, at least as far as the V20 book on the Tal-Mahe-Ra is concerned. Since of course it would be hard to do a book on the organization that has been nearly completely wiped out....
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  • AkatsukiLeader13
    replied to The Capuchin
    I was talking about Samwise, not the hobbits as a whole. Frodo is the central protagonist of story with Sam filling the role of sidekick. Yet in many ways Samwise is more heroic than Frodo and was the one keeping Frodo going later in the story.

    A sidekick does not automatically mean a spectator or second fiddle to the hero. They can have their own engaging stories while existing as sidekicks.

    It all depends on how the story is handled.



    True and if a chronicle is treated as such, it will flounder like that. But as I recall the events in Nights...
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  • The thing is, the relic-nukes had never been used before that point and we don't know how many exist. It's also something that few know about. So it's unlikely they would have had 'nuclear shelters' in Enoch.

    There's also the fact the destruction of Enoch was ultimately engineered by Anubis to awaken Osiris. And when you have Gods or God-like entities interfering in things, it's hard to work ways around that. There's also all the vague prophecy stuff circling around that implies that relic-Enoch was just as doomed as the First City was.

    But even besides all that,...
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  • AkatsukiLeader13
    replied to The Capuchin
    That's one theory. As I said,

    The first Nos Clan Book claimed she was a Nictuku, the Revised claimed that she escaped from Absimiliard and is a Nos (which backed by all other mentions of her after the first Clan Book) while Lore of the Clans doesn't mention her at all, though that book does note that the story of the Mother is just that, a story.

    Like I said, when it comes to these early vampires, we're talking about intentionally vague and contradictory stories. Her entry in Nights of Prophecy, the book where she died, gives a legend about her origins but then points...
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  • The Core Rulebooks don't actually delve all that deeply into their group. They give you enough to understand them so you can play them but not a whole lot more than that. Though M20 does give more on the groups than previous rulebooks did.

    Guide to the Traditions and Guide to the Technocracy give the rundown of the two groups but they don't really go into the individual Traditions and Conventions and explore what makes them tick because that's what the Tradition/Convention Books cover.

    If you're familiar with VtM, think of it like their Guides to the Anarchs, Camarilla...
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  • AkatsukiLeader13
    replied to The Capuchin
    Actually its speculated that Baba Yaga was the only one of Absimiliard's Childer to escape him and that all Nosferatu are descended from her while the Nictuku were all Childer of Absimiliard and possibly their Childer. Not unlike the situation with Ilyes and Troile, the Brujah and True Brujah. If of course the True Brujah are descended from Ilyes.

    Of course like with so many other things to do with the Antes, their Childer, their Sires and Grandsire, it's all vague with contradictory accounts and lots of uncertainty.

    But yeah, the common theory is that Baba Yaga is...
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  • AkatsukiLeader13
    replied to The Capuchin
    I have to agree with Beckett and Monalfie here. Beings like Baba Yaga are more akin to forces of nature in terms of power and should treated as such. Just as you can't destroy a tornado by punching it, players should not be able to just kill Baba Yaga. The best they can hope for is to survive her. Only something just as or even more ancient and terrible as Baba Yaga should be the one to kill her.

    If I was to allow the players a means to destroyed her, it would something that would very dangerous, damning or otherwise unpleasant for the PCs.

    Who says Bucky and Jimmy...
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  • It is technically an updated version in that it includes a Master Index of the 5E hence the Master Index Edition attached to the title. As it says in the blurb.

    If you're looking for a physical book, go to the Catalyst Game Labs store site as I mentioned and linked in a previous post. They sell both digital and physical books. The Core Rule book is here. However the physical book is quite pricey, even on Amazon. Which is understandable as the industry has pretty much moved to PDFs and Print on Demand. You might find it cheaper in a store or secondhand but honestly you could...
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  • What are you talking about? The 5E Rulebook is there. In fact when you go to the Shadowrun 5E page in the Catalyst Game Labs section, it's right at the top of the list of book as DriveThruRPG often does, arranging the corebook at the top of the book list....
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  • AkatsukiLeader13
    replied to The Capuchin
    I'd add that there are so many characters and plots going on in VtM, that realistically they couldn't have everything appear in Gehenna. Especially since they didn't have one set Gehenna unlike with WtO and Orpheus.

    Plus that all their schemes and plots came to naught in the face of the Antediluvians or Lilith or Caine or God is in keeping with one of VtM's themes, that no matter how powerful you get, that no matter how much you scheme and plot, there's always a bigger fish out there....
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  • Yeah, while I've never played DAI, I've read the rulebook and it gave me an impression that they were trying to keep the more nuanced approach of Hunters Hunted and HtR but with the amount of power at the Inquisition's fingertips it seemed to play more into Hunting, Interrogating (Torturing) and Purging Monsters because God want's you to.

    That said, I did rather like their adventure in the Darkening Skies book where most of the 'monsters' weren't particularly evil. I've played several Hunter games of the other Hunter lines and I've found that the best games are the ones where the...
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  • Some of the legends depicting the deaths of the 2nd Gen as dog-piling by the 3rd Gen and their Childer so there may have been too many Cainites around for one to be able to stop and diablerize one of them without the others stopping them....
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  • True but Enoch is the center of the organization, with its leaders and many of its members calling it home. So its sudden destruction is a severely damaging blow to the organization. Hence why the True Hand was dead in the Rev Ed.

    Could you have a situation where the True Hand survives Enoch's destruction? Sure, but that's not something the book itself supports as I like I said, it was made under the assumption that Enoch wasn't destroyed/ravaged/whatever in 1999. And frankly a True Hand that had suffered such loss would not be in the state it is depicted as in the book within...
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  • DriveThruRPG has Shadowrun in all its Editions. And of course Shadowrun's publisher, Catalyst Game Labs, has the current Edition.
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  • AkatsukiLeader13
    replied to The Capuchin
    I have to agree. One of the themes that VtM has is that no matter how powerful you become there's always a bigger fish by the simple virtue that there are vampires that have existent since the earliest days of Man and have thousands of years on you.

    Baba Yaga is one of those bigger fish. More than that, she's a bigger fish that was killed by another that you didn't even know existed. In-universe that is terrifying and a prime example of there always being a bigger fish.

    Oh and BenjCano, you screwed up one of your references. Janeway did not confront a living personification...
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  • Believe me, it's not worth it despite being cheaper. There's a very good reason why as you pointed out, no one talks about Monte Cook's World of Darkness. It's a terrible book and not worth getting unless you're some kind of WoD/CofD or Monte Cook completionist.

    Urbenmyth's comment about the setting is pretty much all you get for the setting and as they and others pointed out, it's a God-awful mess of a setting that's paper thin.

    If you want something good from Monte Cook, get Numenera.

    If you want something good in a post world changing supernatural event...
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  • AkatsukiLeader13
    replied to The Capuchin
    The thing is, there is no way that PCs would be able to actually take on an Ante in a fight without something big in their favor, much less a 4th Gen that has lived for thousands of years.

    Players take on Baba Yaga? She laughs at the players, then when she realizes they're serious, kills them horribly quickly with little effort if they are lucky. If they aren't lucky... well they're in for a slow, even more terrible death.

    The End.

    Not really much of a better chronicle. At least witnessing her death could be used as a springboard for a greater plot in...
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  • Because like I said, that event was removed from the continuity of V20, or at least V20 if you're using the Tal'Mahe'Ra....
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  • No, the Introduction Chapter specifically lays out that the destruction of Enoch in the Underworld didn't happen....
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  • AkatsukiLeader13
    replied to The Capuchin
    Technically all Kindred are dead.

    As for Japheth, he is dead as a Kindred. Currently he's a wraith because just like with Big Daddy Cappa, the diablerie was incomplete. ....for reasons....
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AkatsukiLeader13
AkatsukiLeader13
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Last Activity: Yesterday, 06:42 PM
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