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  • Sure. But I'm jumping to conclusions based on the underlying logic that the dreaming is influenced by human belief.



    Uluru was also used in Shattered Dreams. What's more, it's used in a ton of other media. We have other places.



    Flies and rodents are governed by different Law to humans. This is not complex.



    Nope. They would be inhabiting it in accordance with Law. This is not complex. If, however, they break the Law by going to the wrong places at the wrong times, then yes, that is forbidden. Also not complex. Are you...
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  • You're mischaracterizing what I'm saying. Uluru is an important site for the Pitjantjara people. It is sacred. This does not mean it has any importance whatsoever in the Dreaming stories and ways of the many, many other Indigenous cultural groups. It's like, say, the Temple Mount. Big deal in Abrahamic faiths, but not important to Shinto. It has also attained an exaggerated importance in outsider views, in the same way that people outside of France might think 'Eiffel Tower' but the average Frenchman doesn't see nor particularly give two shits about it except in some vague 'oh yeah, we have that...
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  • The entire context of what you've decided to engage with is in relation to Uluru, and I'm not mocking you. You literally said it was fine because they can hide themselves from mortal eyes....
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  • loomer
    replied to C20 Freeholds Errata
    The Uluru section beginning on page 53 omits any mention of the strict customary taboos governing the site and the climbing ban.
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  • True, can't hurt to mention there....
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  • To restate the objection slightly differently, asserting that 'nah, fae can attend to fae business without regard to mere mortal custom' while setting them in Uluru is saying that the Dreaming has no influence over the Australian changeling dreaming. It's essentially erasing the legacy of the 50,0000 - 80,000 years of continual inhabitation of this continent, and it does so in a way that's not only lazy but also ignorant of what the Dreaming actually is. It casts all changelings, including Mala the Pitjantjara woman, as essentially colonial and others the Dreaming proper and its stories as being...
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  • Unfortunately the Errata thread is only for typos, dropped words, etc. This is what they'd call a stylistic choice, so my only hope is they see it in here and go 'oh, easy fix!' Given that the response from one of the writers has been largely to argue that 'nah, changelings don't count and they can hide themselves from mortal eyes so it's all good', not too hopeful.



    Changelings profoundly are mortal. Yes, they're also fairies - but last I checked ignoring the 'by the way I'm also a human who needs to eat, sleep, and exist' thing was a one way ticket to bedlam. You may...
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  • Of course, to quote the work itself, "As the dream-stuff seeps into the surrounding area, it shapes itself according to the landscape and the dreams associated witheach specific location." The dreams of Uluru must surely include the Dreaming - in the proper sense, that of the broad usage to refer to Indigenous Australian customary law and religious practice which endures to this day including among the Pitjantjara people - and its ways. The assumptions of the fictional setting are not beholden to real world 'myths' like the Dreaming, but to set a place to visit in the middle of a place...
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  • Pretty much. I mean, I'd still rather see somewhere other than Uluru (just calling it 'Australia's Dreaming made manifest' is kind of fucked, to be blunt, and if PK wants to know why I'm happy to explain) since we have many other places and Uluru is done to death, but I'd be much happier with the section if it just acknowledged that it isn't a place to take lightly. It even writes itself as a concept, if you must have Uluru and a motley poking about willy-nilly in it - why do monsters keep appearing and why does the local changeling dreaming seem fucked? Because people keep violating the long-held...
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  • I think the argument that the Law around a sacred site - and note that I use Law to refer to the traditional customary law of the traditional custodians of the land there, which should inform the local dreaming in a big way - doesn't apply is silly. These Laws are part of the actual, real Dreaming of the site.
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  • Circumventing it by making mortals not see doesn't avoid it being an issue in the first place, Charlie. The Law remains the Law whether you break it in sight of someone else or not.
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  • Sure. But they're still mortals, so their mortal halves are still subject to taboo and Law. It may be modified in its application, but it can't be shrugged off as 'but they're spirits'. Also, it seems like a bold claim to state unequivocally that the WoD is so screwed up because changelings did a bad job. Is that personal opinion, or the official line that I missed somewhere?...
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  • The distinction is that an aspect would be specifically a part of the divinity, not merely an aligned spiritual being.



    My point is this: The Australian Dreaming is its own distinct spiritual landscape. None of this addresses that basic issue. The failure to recognize this distinction and the attempt to map Nunnehi et al to a completely different set of spiritual entities, ways, and beings is an unsatisfying one because it robs the Dreaming of being the Dreaming.



    The Sidhe Duchess of Alice Springs is a clear native title allegory. Further, there...
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  • A creator god is necessarily of a greater magnitude than gods of specific things. You're right that they don't have to be Rainbow Serpent itself, but nonetheless I don't think they're an appropriate basis for a kith. A kith that draws inspiration from them, sure - a kith that is aspects of them, not so much.



    No, I'm disagreeing on the basis that it has no relationship to how the Australian Dreaming works. Nunnehi totems have no relationship to the Australian Dreaming and the Dreaming stories or the way they work. It's a different spiritual landscape.

    ...
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  • loomer
    started a topic RIP Art Bell

    RIP Art Bell

    For those unaware, paranormal radio legend Art Bell passed away Friday the 13th at his home in Pahrump. I figure he's inspired enough games and stories for WoD players of both versions that a thread was appropriate. The man was a true master of the craft and inspired a generation of storytellers to try their hand at paranormal radio and podcasts.

    Wherever he is, if he's anywhere, he's probably giggling at all the conspiracy theories already popping up about his death and at managing to make it fall on Friday the 13th.
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  • The core issue with the Rainbow Serpent as a kith is that it's a being of immensity, far in excess of Eshu. It's equivalent to making kiths based on Atum, El, or Marduk. And while Nunnehi and Menehune have such totems, they have zero relationship to the Australian Dreaming or to the way landmarks like Uluru are represented in it. Uluru as a totem just doesn't make sense, and Uluru as the totem of a universal spirit-kith would be incredibly stupid since Uluru has literally zero significance (other than a generalized symbol of indigenous causes) in the religious practices, myths, and customary laws...
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  • Having the Rainbow serpent as your kith is a bit much and would also be hard to nail down since ol' Snakey has literally dozens of various incarnations and roles, and Uluru... Well, it isn't a totem. It isn't a deity or specific individual spirit in any sense at all, so that would be an enormous misstep.

    As for Glades, no - they're plenty disturbed in this book. None of the four featured are free of significant human or changeling influence; only one is in a place where people don't regularly visit, in fact, though even it has visitors each summer and a strong changeling presence....
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  • Sure - all of which could have been addressed, but wasn't, in the space of a single line. Changelings also aren't dreaming in the Dreamtime sense spirits, and have mortal selves, so I wouldn't be so cocksure about 'nah, she'll be right'. A Pitjantjara woman going to the wrong places in and around Uluru is a breach of law, whether she's changeling or not, and that needs to be acknowledged in the text. That's without even asking the prickly question of initiation.
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  • I wouldn't object quite as much if there'd been at least a brief mention - like, a single line would do it - about how people aren't meant to climb Uluru or go to certain places on and around it because of their role in the customary law and religion of the traditional owners. As it stands it's just 'hey, a cool place for the motley to go', and while a good ST will always do more research it still seems like a serious oversight. Doubly so with Uluru having just been made off limits to climbers by law, starting next year, with some pretty hefty penalties if you do it.

    EDIT:
    Like...
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  • Better - the Merfolk city of Hiath.Appeared in Blood Dimmed Tides....
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loomer
loomer
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