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  • Love dragons! Would like to have more active dragons in WoD, that would be great! that was one of my favorite aspects of the Shadowrun setting, that dragons there aren't just big bags of xp and loot, sitting in their lairs and doing basically nothing, but instead quite active individuals with multiple agendas.
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  • Really-really good points, I agree with you wholeheartedly on this! Your distinction between, strictly speaking, role playing games and collaborative storytelling games hit the nail on the head, I think and I think too, that a more clear distinction and definition would serve the hobby well.

    Just to be clear, I also agree that both are perfectly good ways of engagement.

    What do you think, that those games are seem to be more popular among GM-types could be a reason that those games are also very popular among hardcore rpg fans (most are also GMs) and developers, but not...
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  • That's certainly the most important part for me. I always had a struggle to internalize the concept of "telling a story about a character" as a gaming style and goal. I usually want to play in a story, not tell a story as a player, because telling is something which makes distance between me and the character and the world. I just have greater degree of immersion from the standpoint of an actor or an inhabitant of the setting than from the seat of the director/god. I just like more the feeling of "living" a character than directing an actor's steps through a malleable play....
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  • I think the first sting was what Martin said about NWoD. Then his opinion about incorporating real-world things, which is also a landmine for some people. Then came the hiring of ZakS and the Avery thing, which was the real slap, because a lot of upstanding members here and at rpg.net are friends of David A. Hill, or at least like his works and or/had personal bouts with ZakS. That was the deal-breaker in most of the eyes, I think, since if you're involved personally, you won't just shrug at something like that. I had really no horse in the whole thing, so it didn't affected me strongly. The Kramer...
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  • That's where we won't agree. You're speaking about negative characters, whose existence as a member of a marginalized group isn't a significant part of them being a negative character, or just a tangential thing, or even a sympathetic aspect of an otherwise bad/controversial character, like in Magneto's case. On the other hand I do think that you could show characters, whose identification with a marginalized group plays a significant role in them being a bad character. Of course it could apply in reverse to positive characters too.

    Back to the Avery character (and I don't like the...
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  • Yeah, that could be a thing. Also, there are tons of people not filling out the survey, for example I don't think a lot of gamers from Hungary bothered with it. So, for a lot of reasons, it could be quite skewed, but still it is very interesting and surprising to me!...
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  • To the Avery argument: call me callous, ignorant, or whatever you want, but I just don't believe, on principle in exclusively positive representation, yes, even for marginalized groups. Sorry, but not sorry.

    I understand all the issues around it. I understand all the concerns all of you wrote about. I empathize with your situation, truly. I agree with the importance of positive representation for marginalized groups. It's just, there is a very, very fine line between "not strengthening harmful stereotypes" and "positive discrimination in representation" and I don't...
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    Last edited by PMárk; 05-18-2017, 04:35 PM.

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  • nunboi
    nunboi posted a Visitor Message for PMárk
    Good chatting! If you make a side thread shoot me the link.
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  • My guess is, everyone who ought to be outraged already did and their outrage-o-meter just being depleted. It might refill later, but now I sense more ignoring and disinterest.

    Edit:



    Yeah, that one too. Kudos to them....
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  • I think it's more like it pushed personal buttons in some people on top of (and in conjunction with) the whole ZakS debacle. I think they wouldn't do it the same way a second time.

    On the other hand, End of the Line, Convention of Thorns and now Enlightement in Blood was cherished and those were big "products", actually made/organized by them and I didn't heard from anyone that they were shocking just for shock value....
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  • Honestly, that's why I generally don't dig too deep into who are the artists IRL and who made what? I want to enjoy nice things and sometimes awful people are making nice things. Also, I don't want my involvement with persons to color my evaluation of a product.

    Also, yeah, it'll be a collaborative endeavor. Even if I'd have hate Martin for whatever reasons, I wouldn't write off V5 for just that.

    Just for the record, I don't think anyone in the WW team is an awful person. I don't know any of them personally and yes, Martin could be pretty theatrical, but some of the creative...
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    Last edited by PMárk; 05-17-2017, 06:00 PM.

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  • Being shocking for just shock value, I suspect the biggest reason is the aforementioned plan for using recent events and how Martin talked about it and about using other controversial topics in the game. Some people didn't like that, for personal reasons, although I have no problems with it, I actually liked what he said about all of that.

    Also, some things, like hiring ZakS, the language and story of the VtM Prelude game and Martin's novella in the fiction anthology they (re)published lately. Those could be a worrying sign of them taking the route of "controversy, blood, gore...
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    Last edited by PMárk; 05-17-2017, 05:27 PM.

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  • First, we should establish what "edgy" actually means, and that it is a good thing or bad, because I suspect it's differing a lot between individuals here.

    http://knowyourmeme.com/memes/edgy
    https://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/edgy
    http://www.dictionary.com/browse/edgy

    So, to me, being edgy isn't a slur, but it could be pretentious, if taking too far. Of course, what considers "taking too far" is highly personal. To be honest, for a lot of people, playing vampires struggling for their dwindling humanity is already pretentious and...
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    Last edited by PMárk; 05-17-2017, 05:15 PM.

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  • Hope so. It's a bit like the situation of the Drow in D&D and Pathfinder. When Paizo did their drow-centered campaign, there was a whole sidebox about how the drow are evil and supposed to be evil and that they're primarily antagonists. That's cool, if you want them to be just that, antagonists (incidentally that is one of the very few things i like in FR more than Golarion, I like Drow to be playable). So I get it as a concept and as a reaction to the trend of de-monstifying (is that a term?) the monsters. However, if you want the monsters to e the game's protagonists, you'll need more shades...
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    Last edited by PMárk; 05-17-2017, 04:32 PM.

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  • I really hope it'll turn out the way you wrote!

    Also, am is there something wrong with me that I practically started salivating at the thought of a Mage equivalent of Beckett's?



    Honestly, this, this a thousand times! I'm really happy for things like the lecture about Slavic folklore and it's incorporation to WoD at the vent happening already. US material is good, I want it, but there's also tons and tons of potential in other parts of the world and it always good to get material for your home region at least. I'm seriously considering writing stuff for...
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  • Honestly, I'm glad a well-regarded developer get the lead seat. My two biggest gripes:

    1. His latest works are mostly games in the style I like less, system-wise.

    2. As you mentioned, his thoughts on vampires. I get it, I really do, sparkly-sparkly and his friends and the whole contemporary supernatural-romantic literature got too far to my tastes too. However, vampires in VtM are monsters, yes, but for one, redeemable monsters (without hope, there's no reason to fight, IMO) and for two, they're the protagonists of the game and not everyone likes to play totally bastard,...
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  • Don't want to derail the thread, but it's an interesting discussion, so I think I'd create another thread for it and copy the relevant posts to that okay?...
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  • Thanks for the answer! Honestly, I wrote a few emails to their general info mail address (which Dhaunae answered to) a few months earlier, but I didn't contacted any of them through personal channels. Don't know, I just feel writing directly to someone who aren't my personal acquaintance on FB like that a bit...intrusive? Anyway, I'd take a chance with any of the possible channels you mentioned! It'd be really good to talk to them directly, since I can't really go to these big events, sadly.

    Also, I hope they'd kick in a full-blown open playtest interface, like WotC, that would be...
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  • That's not necessarily a bad thing (I liked some of the ideas in Requiem) and my problem isn't that "it was like that in Requiem" (or, in this case, in NWoD in general), but that, in my opinion, the virtue/vice system is flat out inferior to the nature/demeanor one and everyone I know liked the later better. I think it's good the CofD 2nds wen back in that direction.

    Also, borrowing some ideas from Requiem could be good, I'm not against it, but I think they should be very careful with that. The setting, what we know about it this far already goes into Requiem's direction...
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    Last edited by PMárk; 05-17-2017, 02:26 AM.

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  • What is important, I think is that they stressed they are a licensing company. They won't do all of that by themselves, so that's not as simple as what gets how much from a limited pool of resources.

    Also, I feared too, that the TT will suffer from their focus on LARP, but they didn1t go the way of using LARP rules for TT, their main developing focus is on the TT right now, that will be the first physial product and it has it's own, well-regarded developer(s) and crew. I'm not fearing that that much now.
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PMárk
PMárk
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