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  • Thing is, magic is basically endless. There is always something new to learn, something bigger to attempt, soemthing even more "cool" new spell you'd want to learn and try. I seriously can't see it as becoming mundane and pursuing new knowledge as just a hollow distraction. I honestly think you have to have a very jaded mindset or personality to being a bored mage.

    Likewise, the Umbra is something you'd never know all the truths of.

    Actually, that mindset is something I think Mage the Awakening 2e captured pretty well. The always-present hunger for more. I think...
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    Last edited by PMárk; Today, 09:38 PM.

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  • PMárk
    replied to The Problem With Hollow Ones
    Well, there's a fundamental distinction: academicals can't change reality on a whim. Well, at least the non-Unseen Academicals...

    You can go to playce 99% of the populatin can't, encounter with things they can't do things they can't imagine possible.

    I think you're seriously downplaying the sheer rush magic and the magical world could provide. Also, I wouldn't call it "dime a dozen". Sure, after a while, everything could became normal and everyday, but still, magic is too much, too big for becoming totally everyday. Watch the new season of Magicians, that is...
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  • PMárk
    replied to The D&D thread
    I can only agree with that. And I might add: if they want considerable setting material, then either go with PF, or place an 5e game in an erlier timeline of an existing D&D world and use the older books....
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  • PMárk
    replied to The D&D thread
    Well, I don't really need totally exact definitions. I'm okay with having an "in-between" category. Never really had a problem with that.



    As I see it, the non-neutral alignments are nothing more, than the extremities, one way or another. True neutral is interesting, because it's either the total in-between, or the very esoteric notion of balance and/or neutrality as an ideal.



    Well, I see it as kinda a spectrum. Honestly, that would be ideal, something like several crpgs are doing it. I think Planescape Torment did it that way. However,...
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    Last edited by PMárk; 02-17-2018, 09:48 PM.

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  • PMárk
    replied to The Baron's Theory
    I'd sum my stance up in two sentences:

    Gehenna, in the Revised-era books is the literal end of the World.

    Gehenna, in a cyclical manner is an end of an era.

    I'd even play up the resemblance to the Mayan-calendar hysteria around 2012, which was based on a similar misinterpretation.

    Also, "end of an era" doesn't mean it inconsequential. It will likely bring tremendous upheavels and probably the end of kindred society as it was during the past few centuries. No one will walk away unscathed from this. It's a huge thing, just not an apo...
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  • PMárk
    replied to The Problem With Hollow Ones
    Ah, yes, I wanted to note that too! The Revised books are actually good, I think too. I didn't feel them focusing too much on just surviving and loss, on the contrary frequently....
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  • PMárk
    replied to The Problem With Hollow Ones
    Yup. To be totally honest, I'd have hated to be an active fan during the change between Revised and 2e. But since we only had a few novels in Hungarian and the books were quite hard to get, even if I could read them and would have a group to play (which I hadn't), I more or less started to really dig into Mage in the last 5-6-ish years beyond those few novels and liking the core concept tremendously. So, what I want to say: I'd have hated to "live" through the Avatar storm, but in retrospect, as a historical setting element, I'm fine with it.



    I can picture...
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    Last edited by PMárk; 02-17-2018, 07:41 PM.

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  • PMárk
    replied to The Baron's Theory
    Actually, I was one of those who just missed the "VtMness" from Requiem, the lore, the themes, the details. However, I just never seen the Cainite legends as hard and fast truths in VtM and I never liked the idea of an apocalyptic Gehenna, even before I knew there was a concept of a cylcical one back in the day. I'm just not keen on big singular end of the World scenarios, precisely, because they make the whole story/setting revolving around them and they give a definite end to the setting/story.





    That's totally fair and agree to disagree is cool....
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  • PMárk
    replied to The Problem With Hollow Ones
    Kinda-sorta agree on that. I liked what brucatto said in M20, that Mage is basically a game of empowerment and hope.

    I have nothing against street-level, dark and gritty play, that is fun, but I don't think it was a good idea, that the revised writers wanted to force it on as the one possible way of playing (and even them downplayed it as the edition progressed). I agree, it's kinda they wanted to make it more like Vampire and I don't think it really worked. Mage could be like that, could be a personal horror story, or just horror and dark and gritty, nothing's wring with that, I...
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  • PMárk
    replied to The D&D thread
    I rarely do that, but on this I'd 100% agree with you. That's my biggest beef with WotC now and mostly the reason I went back to Pathfinder for my high fantasy fix. The 5e system, I actually like it. It's not the be-all-end-all of D&D playing for me, I don't like every part and design choice of it, but it's a good enough system and I won't be a hypocrite, simplicity has its advantages. But, that they aren't supporting the settigns, not even FR is a high crime to me.

    Some say "but there are the old books, we don't need to reprint the material every edition!" and I say...
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  • PMárk
    replied to The Problem With Hollow Ones
    Yeah, they're like that to me too (though I don't really have problems with the core groups as being artificial). The M20 core writeup could work, as a concept, IMO, but I'd like to see actual story and metaplot about how it works, their struggles, battles, inner problems etc, to make it convincing....
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    Last edited by PMárk; 02-16-2018, 09:33 PM.

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  • PMárk
    replied to The Problem With Hollow Ones
    Yup, it's like that to me too.




    Glad I could help! I like this pretty much. I could imagine the NWO taking in a Hollower kid for questioning, pushing a form to her to fill and then half the compound lose their shit and the kid walks out with a grin.

    Actually, this whole postmodernist meme-using concept is more and more appealing to me, I think I'll make a character like that sometimes. That's the beauty of the tradition, you could practically make it into anything you'd like. I'd say that yes, it's postmodernist in that sense.

    Just...
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  • PMárk
    replied to The Problem With Hollow Ones
    It's okay. We all have our own worldviews and we don't have to agree on philosophycal "truths" (see? no wonder I felt much kinship with them...). For me, for example, transhumanism was something I never could stand and honestly, I read several Technocracy books and while I get the underlying reason why people could look at them as good guys, on a philosophycal scale, actually what I read in the books made me more and more sick. I don't want to live in a world like they're trying to make.

    But I never got Choristers as simpathetic either, as I mentioned, I'm really non-religious....
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    Last edited by PMárk; 02-16-2018, 08:51 PM.

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  • PMárk
    replied to The Problem With Hollow Ones
    Ah, okay, now I understand! Thank you these were worthwhile remarks indeed!...
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  • PMárk
    replied to The Problem With Hollow Ones
    Like?



    Erm, no? It's a guy, barely scraping enough to rent a matress in a drug-den, nearly dying then awakening during a fight between some technocracy agents and some Hollowers, then got rescued and recruited by same Hollowers. Which is Penny's and Neville's Cabal, and yeah,t hey are quite goth-y, but even not all of them. Then Penny and another non-goth Hollower girl intruducing him into the history and basics of the group, at a caffé and a flat. There's no goth party at all. Then they invite him to a gathering, which contains the founding members of the Tradition...
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  • PMárk
    replied to The Problem With Hollow Ones
    Well, I can understand the impression and the bad real-life experiences.

    However, to me they are fun. One thing i really liked is the Penny Dreadful novel. A lot of Mage fans don't like it, because it's too much high adventure and gonzo for them, with a fair share of crossover thrown into it. I loved it, it's precisely how I imagined them, reading the tradbook (and a more like how I imagine Mage in general).

    Thing is, they might be less into the front lines of the great war between the Technocracy and the Traditions, but precisely because they are drawn to the uncommon,...
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    Last edited by PMárk; 02-16-2018, 12:45 AM.

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  • PMárk
    replied to The Problem With Hollow Ones
    You're right and I understand. It's just, aside from not liking the hipster subculutre IRL, I strongly associate WoD with the gothic-punk aesthetics (I know you don't like that either, that's fine) and hipsters are going against that very badly. i won't exclude them from a WoD book, that would be against the principle of copying our own reality. I just don't like the picture of contemporary Hollowers hanging out in Starbucks in skinny jeans and nerdy glasses. Or Torreadors and Brujah hunting for prey there. It's just against my personal aesthetical taste.



    I'd say you...
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  • PMárk
    replied to The Problem With Hollow Ones
    They aren't.



    More and older than that, actually, see my previous posts. Only the name was penned by Neville Sinclair around that.



    I wouldn't call it superficial, but that's me.



    They aren't uniformly anything. I can't really have the time to copy it there, so I'd suggest reading the pages 47-49 in the tradbook, if not else.





    I'd say they are precisely like that. It's just, it was the goth subculture, back in the day, at that point of history, that attracted a lot of them, for...
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  • PMárk
    replied to The Problem With Hollow Ones
    I'm glad you found it useful.



    Oh, I certainly do! As I said, my problem wan't with your concept itself, I could certainly imagine a very intersting Hollower character with that paradigm!




    Well, you are familiar with the corebook writeup, yes? that is the common stereotype, and I'd wager, the initial concept of them (in the sense of how the initial concept of the Brujah was moltov coctail-tossing rebellious anarchist punk neonates). The revised Tradbook is more or less what I wrote above. I always got the feeling that the corebook reflected...
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    Last edited by PMárk; 02-15-2018, 09:37 PM.

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  • PMárk
    replied to The Baron's Theory
    Okay, I'm getting where you came from.

    The way I see it, Gehenna as the End of the World got much more emphasis during Revised. As mentioned, earlier, the idea of a cyclical Gehenna was there too. And it was really a product of its time, the whole turn of the millenium angst. However, I started to play and overall getting involved with WoD years after 2000, at the very tail end of the original lines' run. I always seen it as the ending of the games (thus, the killing) was precisely the result of the emphaisi on the End Times. You just can't wind up the tension and dangle the Apocalypse...
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    Last edited by PMárk; 02-15-2018, 08:58 PM.

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PMárk
PMárk
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