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  • You don't take into account things like exactly which circles of the fanbase particiapated most actively in the playtest (I don't think it was as extensively promoted and easy to reach as it should be) and the depth of the feedback and also how much they were adamant about their vision. There were no real questioning of really important stuff and core concepts and rules, the playtest was mostly just for fine-tuning and mostly for the Hunger mechanics.



    Now, that's bs, sorry, you're stating personal oppinion and preferences as facts. Blood pool is just a resource-management...
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  • I'd just say, as a personal anecdote, that Vampire Revised is still the 3rd, or at least 4th most-played rpg in Hungary (and the first is not D&D5).



    That is more-or-less right and if you compare everything to D&D and PF, yes, everything else is basically inconsequential and close to non-existing, with fanbases you can hardly even notice, but that is a very one-sided view on things. It's understandable, though, from a store-owner, if I recall correctly that you are one....
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  • You do realize that it's still 19th best-selling, on drivethru? That some WoD 20 books are among the most-successfull rpg kickstarters?

    Of course it wasn't as wide-range success as the earlier editions. The situation was different, the market was different, the method of publication was different. There are really few rpgs now, which could reach as wide an audience, through normal retail methods. More or less D&D, Pathfinder and SW and that's it and OPP is clearly not WotC, or FFG.

    But downplaying it like that is just, well, intentionally downplaying it.
    ...
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  • It's a good thing you've got that out of your system, I hope it helped.

    Otherwise, yeah, I disagree. It's not that the old system is flawless (and I hoped for many revisions/updates/changes, just not the ones we've got, in too many cases, though some are good), but your stance is way overblown.

    If you think folks who prefer V20 are looking at it through rose-tinted glasses, you're doing just the same with V5.

    Also, the "oooh, those sorry old folks who don't want to acknowledge the new times and progress yadda-yadda" is still a woefully inaccurate...
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    Last edited by PMárk; 09-22-2018, 09:12 PM.

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  • Yes, that's quite right.

    To be fair, I defended the Hunger and compulsions mechanics, during the development. And I still think that the core idea isn't a bad one. Yes, hunger was always something the fluff stressed in every edition, but the rules addressed only a minimal way. Yes, some people prefer that and that's okay. However, I do think that giving this aspect more backup on the rules level is a good thing. I also think how you are what you eat turnd out is not a bad direction either.

    On the flipside, it might be that they went a little overboard and made the game...
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  • Again, it's strange how we've got the exact opposite impressions. I've read the 2e core clan writeups (admittedly, not all the clanbooks at this point) and the Revised ones, IMO, were better and less stereotype-y. not by a wide margin, since there was limited space in both, but a bit better. Also, the clanbooks were anything but stereotype-y. Usually. I used to hate the Toreador, when I only read the corebook, but the clanbook made them into one of my most favorite clans, maybe THE favorite. I always got the impression that outside the corebook, the writers consciously avoided leaning on the clan...
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    Last edited by PMárk; 09-18-2018, 07:19 PM.

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  • Hmmm, interesting.

    As I've said, I've started with Revised and I never got the impression you did. The exact opposite, in fact. I never got the impression that clans are castes, I had tons of real-world connections, wasn't overwhelmed by the self-referential metaplot in the core (really, there wasn't any notable ammount of that) and having all the clans and sects, which are important parts of the setting was natural and choosing a clan from the non "core" 7 wasn't because of cool superpowers. Everyone got cool superpowers. Also, I never got the feel that we are encouraged...
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  • Seconded.

    And may I add that V20 is still best-selling on DTRPG...

    V5 is the first new edition accessible for the larger audience, who aren't in the immediate fandom, for a long time. A lot of those new players might have only heard about VtM, since it's heyday was before their time. So, of course, there's an excitement and sense of energy and revitalization. And, as a VtM fan, I'm happy about that. Still, I'm not ascribing it to how good V5 is and how good were the design decisions, but to that public excitement and availability.

    We'll see how it's doing...
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  • Honeslty, I was okay with that.

    For me, it was Revised 2.0. And yeah, I missed the metaplot too, but appreciated books, like Anarchs Unbound. If V20 (and all the other 20ths) would have made the step of actually actively use the plot elements and setting changes presented, that would have been perfect for me. I could have use a rules update/clearup, for sure (and continuation of said plot), given time, I was pleased when OPP announced their V4. But I never asked for what V5 turned out to be....
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  • Ok, you said it the third time and I'm curious: what gave you that impression? Because you already said that V20 was mostly a rehash of rEvised, so if V20 didn't add many new things (which is true, for the corebook), then how it gave you the fel of "bog standard power urban fantasy" if the earlier editions didn't? Especially if 2e didn't?

    It just seems incostintent. I don't want to pretend I know what you guys feel/think, but I strongly suspect you just got bored of the old setting and rules and maybe playsstyles you've perceived around you (ie: people playing high-powered...
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  • And I'd say again, V5 is likely more appealing for more of the people, who abandoned VtM, for whatever reason, than for the people who stayed with it.


    Also, I still think the best corebook is Revised. It had the most fluff information and mechanical options to page count from all of them.

    I'm not even sure what V5 used those more than a hundred extra pages, while having considerably less stuff. Likely for the description of the new systems, flavor text (which although, is not setting info, not really) and lots and lots and LOTS of white space for that "clean...
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  • Waiiiiiiit.... Earlier editions ended up being more cartoonish and cookie-cutter, because... they had more stuff in the corebooks?

    Yeah, won't buy that. more stuff means more interesting character concepts adn stories for me, not less....
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  • Honestly, I was surprised how old the first Anita Blake books were. I started reading them way later (and still think they were pretty good, before it went to stright up porn and endless relationship drama, but hey, lately it got a little better again!), in the early 2000's. Might have been that she just came to a lot of similar concepts on her own and it's undoubtedly true that she could be credited to establishing the modern UF genre as much as WoD. Hell, I believe shi IS the reason most UF writers are women and that most of their protagonists are some slightly-altered copy of of Anita Blake,...
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  • PMárk
    replied to State of the Sabbat in V5
    And I'm not really sure that's a good thing. Lots of Vampire were based on the fact that the setting had an unified view on what is monstrous.

    Now, one thing could be monstrous at one table and perfectly fine at another. It's good for flexiblity, but how would you write cohesive story and setting and supplements with that in mind?

    I think the books should take a more-or-less constant bunch of tenets as the baseline for the setting and custumizable tenets might have been better served as an optional rule in a hipothetical ST's Guide.

    Convictions are unifically...
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  • Well, I've said in the other thread that I like his presentation, both in videos and on these boards a lot better than the presentation the book gave me.

    That's the only reason why I'm willing to read the future books, because the story might turn out good, at the end, if they manage to connect the dots in a satisfying way.

    But I'm standing by my assertion: V5's main plot points and setting changes were decided way before BJD, mostly by Martin's vision....
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  • Which, I think, again, might be veray close to how the V5 developers line of thinking went. Martin Ericsson even said in one of the early interviews that he thinks Requiem might have been the better tabletop game. I think saying that you prefer those themes, but also prefer Masquerade's setting and backstory describes it pretty well. Hence, you're pretty much in the target audience.

    I just ask you to understand that not everyone is like that. That a lot of people liked the "gonzo" stuff, even if they weren't playing vampions all the time. I, for example, always particularly...
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    Last edited by PMárk; 09-15-2018, 02:35 PM.

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  • Nooooot quite. If you followed the panels and interviews of the WW crew since the new WW's inception, most of the V5 metaplot changes were practically decided since the beginning. BJD was, at that time, not even in development, or early on, I think.

    They've said, after BJD came out (or shortly before), that it is a lead-up to V5, but I think it's mostly in the sense of mining it for future story ideas and that maybe some chapters, especially the final one, got to be more conforming to V5.

    BUT, V5's story wasn't based on BJD. I wish it was. V5 isn't following up on any...
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  • I'd even say Vampire (and WoD in general) birthed the whole Urban Fantasy genre. The idea that there are many monsters and every kind of fantastic creatures in cities, living their secret lives among humans, politicking, waging wars with each other, gathering in familial, or gang-like groups, etc. and that they are the protagonists of the story, that's all WoD.

    Yes, Anne Rice did the "the vampire as a protagonist" thing and VtM borrowed from her heavily. But the modern UF genre came out from under WoD's trenchcoat with all the tropes you've listed and many more.
    ...
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  • Mostly, since the "new" convention books came out, I just treated it as an alternate timeline, where things just went on and the apocalypse and the immediate events leading to it didn't happen. And it did went on, for example with things in Anarchs Unbound and Dread Names, or Guide to the TMRah. At the end, BJD closed even that gap between Revised and V20....
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  • And that something is new and different doesn't mean it's good, or better.

    Honestly, some poeople are estatic about V5 being new and different and I just say "yeah, and?". I liked the old style, that it is radically different isn't particularly a plus for me, it just means it doesn't fit my vision of Vampire as well....
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PMárk
PMárk
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