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  • Thanks for responding. I understood the content of her post via context. What I'm asking is what does (*hurk*) mean by itself? Is it supposed to be gagging/dry heaving/vomiting sounds? That's my best guess.
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  • What does (*hurk*) mean?...
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    Last edited by figurehead; 06-14-2018, 01:32 PM.

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  • 1. I don't think it's true to say CoD is more known for 'role playing' over 'roll playing.' Onyx Path does not have a monopoly on that. Further, I seem to recall a lot of emphasis on toolkit/sandbox style books as way to differentiate it from the metaplot heavy Classic WoD. I also don't think liking the dice mechanics means you can infer the quality of play at someone's table.

    2. I have not asked for more mechanics over setting. I have asked for existing mechanics to be released separately.

    3. I do not think it is disingenuous to ask for a product. This thread was a...
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  • figurehead
    replied to Product Request
    Thanks for the replies. I'd really prefer it if posters in this thread would just let me know if they would or would not be interested in such a product. So if such a product were available, would you buy it?
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  • There may be a misconception. This is actually a customer asking other customers if they would be interested in a product that is not currently on offer in the hopes that they would say yes. If enough said yes, perhaps the company would see the demand and make with the supply.

    Unfortunately, my original post was not received in the straight forward manner in which I intended it, and my not perfect memory didn't think of things that I hadn't thought of for years. With that in mind, my original post should have gone like this:

    Product Request...
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  • figurehead
    started a topic Product Request

    Product Request

    Hi there! Anyone else remember this product? World of Darkness: God-Machine Rules Update

    I really liked it and would love to see similar treatments created/released for all the Onyx Path gamelines such Vampire, Mage, Werewolf, etc.

    I would also love it if the information which has lately been contained within the appendix sections of supplement books (ie: disciplines/merits/devotions, etc) would be sold separately, either as an anthology comprising the appendices of several books together or as pamphlets released concurrently with the full book.

    I am not...
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    Last edited by figurehead; 06-14-2018, 12:14 AM.

  • The chicken would be other fluff. IE: other settings. I know nothing prevents me from taking the rules of Onyx Path products and using them in any game setting I see fit. I'm just asking for the option to purchase them separately so I would not have to pay a steak I will not eat. Perhaps we should avoid metaphors going forward.
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  • I didn't count the words in SotC, but if the chapters have the same amount, then it should be 17% for SotC. and again, I wish I could have bought the appendix separately, but I did buy the whole book.
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  • @Charlaquin: I didn't do an exhaustive analysis of every book's crunch to fluff ratio. However, it seems pedantic to me to keep quibbling over this. However, if it will satisfy you:

    Clanbook Daeva: 10%
    Clanbook Gangrel: 13%
    Clanbook Mekhet: 33%
    Clanbook Nosferatu: 16%
    Clanbook Ventrue: 17%
    Secrets of the Covenants: 12%
    Average: 17% (figures have been rounded)

    The point is, there is definitely a dichotomy which exists. One side of the dichotomy is definitely a minority of the page count. I think the imbalance is much greater and the...
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    Last edited by figurehead; 06-13-2018, 09:48 PM.

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  • @satchel: I have not at any time accused anyone of being a liar. The 85% figure was derived from some quick math based on Secrets of the covenants and one of the 1e clanbooks. I did a quick page count and divided. They matched pretty closely. For other books, I would have to page through them to find out the ratios. I never said 85% of all the books were fluff and 15% crunch. I used the example of what are in my opinion, the worse offenders. As to your last statement. I don't understand why the idea of different products being published would be offensive. Why would it be more or less offensive...
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  • This analogy I can get on board with. Give me my seasoning and let me go sprinkle it on some chicken, without having to buy a steak, as well....
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  • @ArcaneArts: I haven't read Beast (googled Obcasus Rites.) I have, however read most of the Requiem Books. Cover to cover. Many of them I found very useful. VtRcore, Covenant Books and Damnation city would be my top picks. My point is this: After reading all this content from this company I feel that most of of it is not of high quality and not worth the money spent on page count. The merits, disciplines, conditions and the like (crunch, if you will) is of very high quality and very much worth the money spent on page count. I do appreciate your willingness to chat and your yes/no answer.
    ...
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  • Customer: “Hi there, I noticed you have ‘Surf and Turf’ on the menu. I’ve eaten here before and I didn’t care for the seafood. Can I just buy the steak?”
    Waiter: “We do not serve ‘Surf and Turf.’ Those terms are offensive.”
    Chef: “There is no ‘Surf and Turf,’ only dinner.”
    Customer: “Well, can’t you put the part of dinner that is not from the sea on a plate by itself and sell it to me?”
    Chef: “Our lobster is amazing. You won’t even know what to do with the steak if the lobster is not on the plate with it.”
    Customer: “I just...
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  • 1. Fluff and Crunch are the most commonly used and commonly understood words describe the dichotomy of game content. They are not 'widely controversial.' Even the people in this thread who do not like those words cannot agree on what to use instead. setting/fiction/lore/mechanics/systems/sub-systems/game content? I'm not going to play the semantics game.

    2. There haven't even been many releases per game line since 2nd Edition. I think in Vampire that has been, the Core Book +3? So, 5 books from 1st ed and 1/3 supplements from 2nd is a pretty strong pattern. I referenced those books...
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  • noun: lore
    • "a body of traditions and knowledge on a subject or held by a particular group, typically passed from person to person by word of mouth."


      I will use mechanics and lore where appropriate from now on. However, I do not think the content of Secrets of the Covenants qualifies. Definitely Noise (in my opinion) with the exception of the mechanics in the appendix. Those were great.
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  • Thanks Willow for the insight. I can see and understand why a game developer would want to classify everything as 'game content.' I even agree. Everything in the books is game content. However, it seems that as I look at my books there is a pattern. The majority of the book is fiction and setting info, and then there is an appendix comprising approximately 15% of the page count. It is in the appendix where they keep all the goodies like new merits and such. It seems the developers know quite well the difference between crunch and fluff. They even segregate the two in the books.

    As...
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  • Thanks for the anecdotes.

    To my original point though: Would you have a problem if Onyx Path decided to offer some or all of their books such that the rules/merits/powers could be purchased separately at a reduced price, while still offering the full book including all the setting/fiction at full price for those that wanted it? Or even the setting/fiction without the crunch?

    I feel like the thread has become a thread of 'fluff defense.' I am not trying to take away setting/fiction from those that like it. I am just realizing that all (and I do mean all) of the setting/fiction...
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  • I am not an industry insider, so some of this is new information to me. Thanks for sharing. Also, if i have given the impression that I think Onyx Path should stop printing anything other than rules and new merits and such, I apologize. That was not my intention. However, I would still like an opportunity to purchase the crunchy bits separately. They have already been written, and we now use a PDF/PoD business so it's not like they have to take the risk of publishing and stocking thousands of physical books. I suspect even those that love the fluff would consider buying a single tome with all...
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  • Do you have any numbers to back that? To my knowledge, Onyx Path has not been selling to crunch divorced from fluff. So, there are not sales figures to compare.

    It might cost a little more in the way of page layout to release rules, merits, etc divorced from the setting and fiction, but could potentially lead to more sales. Regardless, we won't know unless they try it. Thanks also for your feedback.
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  • The WodCodex is a great resource, and one that I use. However, Onyx Path does not get paid when I do. I would like a way to pay them for what I use and value, without subsidizing what I do not.

    Thanks for the replies
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figurehead
figurehead
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