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  • That is evident from your tone and your tendency over the years to take offense at my posts. Perhaps we value different things and that prevents understanding.

    I am essentially claiming that a disproportionate amount of our game books only concern themselves with stuff on par with the very first iterations of dungeons and dragons. IE that you make a character, do a dungeon run for loot, go back to town and party. Then you repeat over and over.

    In vampire your brujah biker gang does their Lost Boys impression until the players or ST get bored with it. Then they start a...
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  • Okay I think we have several people talking about the same terms, but using very different definitions and thus talking past each other.

    Standard game =
    ST watches a movie such as "
    The Sting
    " and says to their players "hey I want to do a one off pulp con man game, go make some era correct con artists". The game concludes when the heist is pulled off and the PCs make their escape.

    But everyone had a lot of fun so the game gets extended and continues with further heists and scores. But fundamentally it stays at the same level, the PCs always burn through
    ...
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  • Yeah, I have played a few of those, sadly they tend to get too far removed from the sweet spot that I am talking about. The character still has to matter on a personal play level, while the grander scale still has to be viable. Otherwise you are just playing a 4x game with a character editor....
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  • My example only shows that people routinely don't think about anything character wise, story wise, or mechanics wise beyond what is directly in front of them. Is this a good or a bad thing? Who knows, but if we never ask the question or try it out, then that is demonstrably bad for gaming in general.

    Until White Wolf you were generally expected to hand your character over to the GM for use as an NPC if they got turned into a Vampire or contracted Lycanthropy. You were only at most expected to play evil characters, but never play as the monster since that was too far out there in role...
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  • I see where you are coming from, but there are inherent game design element traps that the developers fall into which in turn limit the options of the game, and if civilians can home brew some balanced rules for that scenario, then it is not impossible for the developers to do the same.

    Staying with Vampire for a moment, lets say you wanted your character to pursue a boxing career for a while. So they train up their fortitude and potence scores and then go to town in their weight class. Over time you beat every fighter and become that weight class champion, perhaps with a perfect...
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  • A good vampire example of what I am talking about is Golconda. If you achieve it, then not only are you at peace with your inner beast, but your stat caps are removed so you can with enough xp 10 dot everything with no restriction. There are tons of rules to loose humanity or path points, how to become nothing but a mindless undead beast, and tons of rules for what happens when your scores change. But there is no real support for the point where you transcend the system or what a campaign would look like if an entire coterie managed to succeed at Golconda at once.

    In
    ...
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  • I've lot count of the number of games and systems I have tried over the decades. The issue is that most standard games don't invest in that bigger scale game that we are talking about, almost like they ran out of interest.

    Alternatively if the game or system starts at that larger scale level, then it never feels that personal or that unique to your play through. Kind of like playing a big 4X strategy game or the Sims doesn't scratch the same character connection itch as say skyrim or Vampire: Bloodlines. Such games stay in that grand scheme head space and never make the connection...
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  • Thoth
    replied to Why is Climate Change so controversial?
    The elected officials put in place by the masses who then selected city planning "experts" who turned out to be bad at their job. The big issue with democracy or in our case a republic, is that we the people are responsible for those we elect. If the representative did a bad job, then that's is partially on us for not doing a better job voting....
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  • Its not just gods and kings, its the ability to change the setting rather than simply reacting to it.

    In D&D you can play an evil alignment, but there aren't mechanics for doing the things the villains end up doing. Why is it that it is only the NPCs who discover an ancient rite that can change the world, only the NPCs can design the magical object that will change the balance of power, only the enemy NPC can make a society change direction.

    From a certain point of view, the myth about Johnny Appleseed suggests he has more long term "setting" power than...
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  • Thoth
    started a topic And then what? - or a lack of scope in gaming

    And then what? - or a lack of scope in gaming

    Game design is weird. It hyper focuses on some aspects, but completely glazes over other aspects.

    In your standard D&D style fantasy game, you focus on leveling up, wandering from place to place often with no overall goal beyond kill things and take their stuff. While being a "murder-hobo" is a time honored tradition, there is from time to time the player or group that wants to become king/queen of an empire. But there isn't really much in the way of mechanics to support that goal, let alone give a frame work for what happens in the game once you achieve that goal. I...
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  • Thoth
    replied to Why is Climate Change so controversial?
    We were sending food and war materials to the UK before the US entered the War in 1941, then the war went on until 1945. So the entire culture was shaped by four years of rationing, then we spent the following years trying to stabilize the war damaged countries. Compare that to now where we have only had minor rationing for about 3 months.

    Though to be fair back in the 1940s a much higher percentage of the US population lived on rural farms rather than in big cities and the suburbs weren't really a thing yet. As such a larger portion of the population was essentially self sufficient...
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  • Thoth
    replied to Why is Climate Change so controversial?
    Yes and no.

    I agree that planned obsolescence is something that should be outright illegal. I have tools from my grandfather that still perform well after almost 80 years of use, while the ones bought at a store break or shred. I mean how corrupt do you have to be to mess up making a hammer or screw driver.

    As for the radio broadcasts, you have to remember the cultural context at the time. Namely there was national rationing going on due to WWII, people were encouraged to save bacon grease so that it could be refined for its nitrates and nitrite content to make gun powder...
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  • Thoth
    replied to Why is Climate Change so controversial?
    Let's also not forget that what drives capitalism is the consumption of goods and services by the public. If the average consumer wasn't obsessed with having the new model smart phone every year, rather than replacing it every 3-5 years a lot of these big corporations wouldn't have the money that they do. While I agree that Corporate greed drives a large part of this debate, the fact that the public in general values "new" and the "latest" rather than long term quality that can be handed down through generations is a huge part of the climate debate.

    Everyone wants...
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  • And the Sire can't just ghoul the mortal, thus keeping them young and healthy until the vampire has gotten enough favors to earn another childer embrace? There isn't really a reason for resentment....
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  • Most of your statement pretty much sums up the paradoxical fluff I am talking about.

    Some one like a Music Star or Inventor/Business person being too high profile to embrace is purely a logical statement, while at the same time claiming that most of human and there for vampiric decisions are emotional in nature and thus a Toredaor actually would embrace Rhianna despite the high profile nature. On the other hand how many musicians or other inspired individuals die young? A high profile person can easily be embraced and thus preserved, they just can't be public anymore.

    ...
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  • Privilege has nothing to do with it, unlike humans who have to wait and see if their offspring grow up into worthwhile individuals, vampires select who gets embraced from an adult population pool. Sure there are random embraces by some but the majority are considered carefully by their sires.

    But what does a sire look for in a potential childer? Some might choose based off looks or a resemblance to a lost love, but by in large childer are selected for their ability to survive and be competent in their abilities. I mean if the local sheriff is looking for some additional muscle to...
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  • So your statement is that some one invoked "what ever works in your game" rule (which has been in every book since first edition) and that some how counts as a retcon?...
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  • I run which ever style gets the players the most engaged with the game. Some people want a game where they spectate history and have interactions with famous people. Others want games where they are the ones changing the world. As long as they keep coming back for more games and I don't burn out from having to always ST, I just try to pick the right style for the job....
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  • It's not just "safe and hidden" it is the entire world population of vampires, which includes those that are awake, in torpor, newly made, elder vampires, and oh yeah.... the entire Kuei-Jin population of the world.

    Here is a quote from the Vampire Storytellers Handbook, 3rd Edition WW2304 published back in 2000.



    So there is a stated max population for vampires, and it is lower than most people think due to the Kuei-jin numbers messing with the math. But more importantly once you start allocating the population by clan and bloodline, and then finally...
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  • Yes and no.

    If you are playing in a game with grossly over inflated vampire population numbers, then yes you have near constant game of thrones power plays and body counts. Alternatively if you are playing with the suggested ratios, then a city the size of San Francisco would have like six kindred total at any given time. Such a small population basically means there is no Camarilla, Sabbat, or any other organized power structure. It would just be a single coterie running the town or a few vampires who have their own niches in society and just quietly co-exist.

    VtM has...
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Thoth
Thoth
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Last Activity: 07-03-2020, 03:50 PM
Joined: 11-04-2013
Location: California
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