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  • Ramnesis
    replied to Mayo vs Mustard
    That was worse than depressing. Much of it was actively boring....
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  • Well I dug up the relevant sidebar in Wraith 2nd:



    But you don't need to limit yourself to that. It's really about what makes your game work.

    Possible relationships could include:

    Oblivion is what is left when the Wyrm destroys something. That is, it is nothingness for the Wyrm to leave and the Wyld to fill.

    When the Wyrm was still a creature of balance it destroyed things purely, but it set that aside when it became a Corruptor. Oblivion is the pure annihilation it set aside.

    Oblivion is something the Wyrm feeds...
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  • Ramnesis
    replied to My Map of the Tempest
    Or instead of that, you could print it out on a clear plastic sheet, put a tall glass on Oblivion, then wrap the map up around the side of the glass. Now add the beverage of your choice and stir....
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  • Ramnesis
    replied to New gods?
    I've definitely seen that happen with other authors, but Gaiman rarely does anything without reason. Which is not to say everything he adds is necessary or that he never takes anything to excess, but if something is in his books it usually has greater meaning than false maturity....
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  • According to Wraith, no. At least not in any direct sense. It depends on what relationship you needed them to have. What were you thinking of?...
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  • Consider that explanation stolen. ...
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  • You should do that whether you dump the metaphysics or not. The two aren't contradictory. Humans are smart, they are going to make advances in whatever environment they happen to be in. That doesn't hinder the Technocracy, it actively helps them. It means they don't have to introduce most of the inventions, they can just spread their paradigm and let people do most of the heavy lifting.

    That's one of the biggest advantages the Technocracy has, it's methods are very user friendly.



    I actually disagree on this one. You don't need things to be predictable throughout...
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    Last edited by Ramnesis; 06-23-2017, 08:18 PM.

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  • A lot of this depends on just how influential you think the Technocracy and Traditions are. History, the way Mage tells it, is very closely tied to the spread of the Technocracy. It is not specifically necessary for the Technocracy to exist for the scientific method to arise, but would it be as effective without their backing? Depending on how flexible reality is (and I go with the interpretation that it's really flexible) they are responsible for much of modern technology. Even if they aren't it's hard to say they weren't integral to its spread. I'd say that without some major faction trying...
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  • Heat waves and collapsing ice shelves, no matter how visible they may be, simply are not as noticeable as something we notice with every moment and rely on with every step. That isn't a dig against Climate Change evidence its simply a statement of just how much we notice gravity. In general, if you don't learn it until school it isn't as deep as gravity, inertia, mass, or any of the other things you have to start figuring out to even move effectively.





    Sounds like we are closer in view than I thought. Keep in mind, though, that I am comfortable taking...
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  • This is broadly what I think is going on with the Consensus and Mages. At this point most Mages know conceptually that belief changes reality, but the details of how it works are vague. That's why they focus more on distributing their beliefs and ideas and hope the rest takes care of itself. Even the NWO aren't masters of controlling the Consensus, they just have a lot more hands on experience at disseminating ideas....
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  • This is the one part of your argument I'm not getting. Why does how it came about change how belief affects it? Even if it turns out to be an unanticipated combination of several other principles, once you name it the Consensus should be able to affect it. Sure there's some inertial there, but it's not like beliefs with inertia haven't been overridden before....
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  • Falling off of cliffs has been a known quantity for thousands of years. Climate Change is a considerably younger concept. One is based on very visible principles that we start learning from the day we are born. The other is based on the interactions of chaotic systems that don't factor into the day to day life of most people.

    This is one of those things where plausibility depends a great deal on how you look at Subjective Reality. From what you said earlier it looks like you think of the physical laws of Mage as largely fixed, so largely invisible things like the behavior of...
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  • I have a number of ways of spinning this issue depending on if I want to make the Technocracy or the Traditions look like bad guys. My favorite way, though, is that the Traditions are trying to stop Climate Change by convincing the world it doesn't exist and that science is fallible, and the Technocracy is trying to stop Climate Change by convincing the world that it does exist but that we can stop it. They're both fighting to stop it, but they're getting in each other's way. As for who started it, I don't think either side knows. Manipulating the Consensus is more an art than a science....
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  • Demon lore is not my strong suit, but didn't that war take place across most levels of reality. Assuming the Underworld existed then (I know humans were subjected to death at the beginning of the conflict, I don't know if the sundering happened until later) some of the Fortresses would have been built there.

    Most of them would have fallen during the war or its immediate aftermath, and left nothing but fragments behind. Few of those which lasted, or whose memories lasted would have survived the time since. I wouldn't expect to see any in the Shadowlands. They would have either...
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  • It took me a few minutes to figure out what you thought I was saying. No, that comment was a correction for Aya. For some reason they assumed I was speaking about people who think the real world is subjective. In fact I was just talking about the people who prefer that Mage have a subjective reality.

    It's not my place to say who is and is not a fan, and I certainly wouldn't draw the line over subjective reality.



    Completely valid, but in the context of a thread about Mage Metaphysics we should assume that the conversation is about Mage Metaphysics unless...
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    Last edited by Ramnesis; 06-21-2017, 09:21 PM.

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  • The proponents of Mage having a Subjective Reality, Aya.

    These are the Mage forums. We're in a thread talking about the metaphysics of Mage. I shouldn't have to spell out that we're not discussing the nature of the real world....
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  • :facepalm:

    This is actually an interesting philosophical dilemma with Subjective Reality, albeit one most proponents realized and dealt with a long time ago, so I get why you'd bring into the discussion. But do you have to try poisoning the well every single time you bring it up?...
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    Last edited by Ramnesis; 06-21-2017, 01:37 PM.

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  • Hey, hey, hey, on the way to the pizzeria you might actually step on a butterfly you would have left alone if you'd gone to the pub. And we all know what butterflies do to the timeline.

    To be clear, I only chose pizza because it was in line with the original example of a time traveler in a corner store. It's possible to use more meaningful actions in both the time travel and mundane examples if that better underscores the issues....
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  • Okay, so it's the same whether the time traveler is from the future or the present. The future memories of people existing today will inflict paradox if a time traveler shows up somewhere they don't remember him being.

    All good so far, but let's take time travel out of the equation for a moment. Let's say a mage from today is hungry and is trying to decide whether to go to a pub or a pizzeria. The future memories of people existing today will include which one he goes to. Is his choice already made? Will he get Paradox if he goes against those future memories? Can you get Paradox...
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  • Which aspect of your head canon are you looking for holes in and how detailed do you want them? I think overall you have a workable system, but the there's a lot that could trip you up if you or your players get into the details.

    For instance, here is a question: What happens to someone from the future visiting the present?
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Ramnesis
Ramnesis
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Last Activity: Today, 09:06 AM
Joined: 11-05-2013
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