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  • I've run into the idea before, it's workable if everyone is on board. The major advantage is it gives a sense that magic (or I suppose Avatars) are alive and active and it represents what some paradigms do in practice if not on paper. The major disadvantage is it creates extra work at the table and a potential mechanical disparity. It also draws a the spheres (as rules) and the spheres (as in universe things) closer together. It's personal preference whether that is a pro or a con.

    It wouldn't work with my playstyle, though. When players try to get me to do more work I often...
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  • I can't agree with this. For several reasons.

    This is a power I already give my players in every RPG I run. The world can't be fully defined to us and so we can fill in unestablished yet reasonable things about the world (subject to veto). To give this ability over to Coincidental Magic I have to take away narrative control from the players and I see no reason to do that.

    The ambiguity and gaps that you are exploiting are general elements of shared storytelling, not properties of the world of Mage. Just because we as the players don't know what is in the blank spots...
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  • Treating it as an instrument and using an associated skill check is certainly a way of accounting for the truck. The skill check is listed as optional, I think, but I'm an advocate of using mundane skills to ground the magic in the world....
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  • I'm not trying to solve a problem, I'm trying to explain why I think truck summoning is significant enough to be considered part of the process.

    Also, who is to say this will always be done by a Syndicate Agent?...
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  • We do not have the same view of Mage at all and I'm not even sure how to translate back and forth in this case. I don't consider paradigms to be lies. I assume they are internally consistent even if I don't know the details. I also don't think mages drop paradigms when they drop instruments.

    I'm pretty sure that last one is M20s stance on dropping instruments too.


    *Nasally voice* Well technically the HAN is just an annoyingly perceptive HAB. He can't be a HOO because he can't see inside pockets unless the camera is there....
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  • Fair enough. I keep defaulting to this happening in the middle of a firefight, so the truck has (potentially) a bigger effect on the action than the spell it is facilitating. It wouldn't have that big an effect on a relaxed, sunny afternoon, but I don't want to change the sphere cost due to context. If I have to choose between counting bringing the truck as part of the process or ignoring that aspect, I'm going to count it as part of the process....
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  • Coincidentialiy is not my issue. I have no problem with assuming a nearby UPS truck or any other reasonably plausible thing about the world. That's not even a Mage thing, it is my standard stance for any RPG. However, I would not assume the truck just interjects itself at a convenient moment without help.

    Thus in PBD, bringing that truck from wherever it is to the mage is a part of the spell and must be accounted for in the sphere cost. I wouldn't impose this for a largely cosmetic issue but the truck has a narrative weight and an effect on the flow of the game while it is ...
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  • That depends a great deal on the pacing of the scene. If it is just happening during the course of an average day, not much. If it is happening during something tense like a manhunt or a chase, quite a bit. It's not how the scene is changed after the truck leaves, it is how much it is changed during the time the truck is there.

    Edit: And no, I am not suggesting that the sphere requirements of a spell should depend on whether the mood is tense or relaxed. Instead I am saying that the truck changes enough in enough situations that I have a hard time thinking of it as window dressi...
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    Last edited by Ramnesis; 05-12-2021, 11:11 AM.

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  • I'm not assuming that at all. If the spell just summons a cab that is never a problem because the cab is the purpose of the spell. It is accounted for by definition. If the spell uses a cab as a mechanism for something else and then doesn't account for the cab that starts pushing on my disbelief. Going back to previous examples, a spell that causes a convenient item to be delivered by UPS can't just be a teleportation of the convenient item (in PBD), it also has to account for the truck and driver, even if that is as simple as bringing in an assumed truck from around the corner.
    ...
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  • Agreed. If something such as a full taxicab is a bit much for reality to provide free of charge (on the grounds that it breaks my suspension of disbelief) it must be accounted for no matter who is casting. Something small enough to come "free of charge" (a door that wasn't there before and isn't the next time you look works for me, but may be a bridge too far for others) it is "free of charge" for everyone....
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  • The difference is that in this case the Convention is propping up a paradigm it knows is a lie. It is deliberately building in an inconsistency that doesn't have to be there. It would be like the Akashics producing Wimp Lo



    Yes, it might technically work, but there's no upside to building a big weakness into your agents' world view. About the only scenario this might work for is captured and indoctrinated Reality Deviants.

    You are on much firmer ground with the Ferengi Metaphysics. We may not have a good understanding of how it works, but we can at least...
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  • This is broadly true, but it runs aground on the Syndicate Agent himself. He's going to need to know how the supply chain exists, how it works, and how it will manifest when it delivers. I think if we are at the point where the Syndicate has a fake department to mask that field agents aren't doing what they think they are doing then something has gone wrong. Nor do I think that problem goes away if said department or infrastructure doesn't exist but is just assumed.

    The Hermetic knows how his magic works and has spent quite a bit of time preparing his implements so they are ready...
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  • I guess this really depends on your intuition about what is going on when a sleeper sees Vulgar magic. If the sleeper is adding to the conflict between the magic and reality then, yes, VWW should get fiercer the more actual witnesses there are. That's perfectly workable.

    The way I view it, though, is that if the magic is Vulgar reality is already broadly set against it. The witness isn't adding to the weight of reality he is focusing it. Reality was already pushing in the opposite direction to the Mage, now it is pushing directly against the Mage. Adding yet more witnesses doesn't...
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  • Ramnesis
    replied to Limiting Trinkets?
    My advice, don't look at this issue as a problem. Instead, look at what it means for the character and the story. The character is spending a lot of time making these things. How much? Who notices? What does it mean for their reputation? What does it mean for their opportunities? Who does it irritate? Who does it impress?

    Use the answers to connect the characters into the world and the world into the characters.

    Sure, if down the line you find that it is destroying game balance, address it then. In general, though, the benefits of the players engaging with...
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  • Ramnesis
    replied to Wraith 5?
    I think that's a really good way of describing what projectors would be in a regular Wraith game and why I don't find the concept any more than an idle curiosity. I love both games' take on the ghost story, but they do not play well together. Bringing projectors into Wraith requires stripping out much of what made the characters unique in Orpheus....
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  • This is perhaps not the best area of Mage to have a discussion of Earthly Foundations. There's a lot of room for interpretation when it comes to the nature and history of space. It's already more malleable than the rest of the world and most of the research and exploration we have on it comes through Mages and is colored by their paradigms. Etherspace and the current conventional space could easily rest on the same foundations and just arise from different interpretations of those same points.
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  • Oh I very much dislike the idea of the Traditions having all the answers. As far as I am concerned a lot of their party line is a convenient fiction that everyone states but no one fully believes. Ask the nine traditions how magic and consensual reality actually work and you will get 27 different answers, many of them contradictory.

    My reasons for downplaying the Earthly Foundations actually run in the opposite direction. Most of those I've expounded upon at length so I'll try not to do so again, but the important ones in this case are:

    1) Like you, I don't want either...
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  • Well I think that a lot of the "either idiots or liars" dilemma goes away when we treat consensual reality as something that's easy to say and hard to understand. From our privileged position we can (if we want to) take a very simple approach, but that is not what it looks like in universe. It took thousands of years for anyone at all to figure out that reality was mutable, and in all that time plenty of people were finding truths, constants, and other important and revelatory things. That didn't stop once the Consensus was "discovered," nor did everyone give up on the idea...
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  • If you want a more narrative reason it would be this. Caine, and by extension his progeny, are locked into a set and existent story: rivalry and repetition of the first murder. It is someone else's tale and it is locked in place with no margin for creativity. Any glamour or creativity is drained away by the inexorable flow of this fate. It may not have the same reason for banality as the modern world, but it certainly has reason nonetheless.
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  • Ramnesis
    replied to Wraith 5?
    Fair enough. Orpheus was always going to be a roll of the dice. I think if I had approached Orpheus as a replacement for Wraith, I would have been crushingly disappointed.

    For me the dedication to the new metaphysics and the new theme made Orpheus a great setting. It followed its themes to the hilt and I appreciate that. It very clearly doesn't work with the rest of the WoD, though, especially Wraith. I like it as its own thing, but I have no interest in projectors dealing with established Necropoli and Stygian politics....
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Ramnesis
Ramnesis
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Last Activity: Today, 07:29 PM
Joined: 11-05-2013
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