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  • Ramnesis
    replied to Pregnancy rules
    That's so far past the line on so many levels... Railroading. Loss of agency. Character violation. I'm not surprised you have trust issues from it....
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  • Even without getting into what Technocracy higher ups think, this seems very high risk as an outright fabrication. On the other hand if the NPC really does have a low level quiet the tactic becomes more feasible. Lies built on a foundation of truth do tend to be more convincing than outright lies.

    As for the higher-ups, what does your headcanon say about the link between Quiet and Marauderdom. If the Technocracy doesn't see the two as linked, I don't think they'd have a problem as long as it is done well.
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  • I wouldn't build that kind of assassin. I'd focus on him not getting caught instead.

    Your technocratic assassin is going to have a difficult time hiding his actions from the Traditions. More importantly, though, he probably doesn't need to. What he needs is to be difficult to stop and difficult to catch. If he has that then the Trads knowing he is responsible works to his advantage. It makes him the hunter and them the prey. He might even want to leave some kind of oblique calling card.

    My advice is do a token gesture of hiding evidence, but let the players find...
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  • Early Werewolf also painted a more dire picture of the struggle against the Wyrm. The War was pretty much lost and Werewolves were either going through the motions, giving into the Wyrm, or falling into Harano. Both the desire of players to be active forces and the need for an advancing Metaplot started pushing that back....
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  • Ramnesis
    replied to Paradigm Ideas
    Paradigm has changed a bit in meaning over the years, so it isn't 100% clear what we are talking about here. Do you mean a particular magical practice (invokes the true names of the angels, exploits nth dimensional physical principles, hacks the base code of reality, etc.)? Or do you mean magical philosophies (the world is fundamentally mechanistic, the world is fundamentally alive and adaptive, it's all an illusion, etc.)?
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  • I remember that, I also remember something about similar spells not stacking. In the case of several armor spells, only the most effective one applies. I can't find either one in a quick skim of M20, and I think at least one of them is actually from Mage the Awakening, but I don't know which.

    There is a rule about increasing difficulties for maintaining too many effects at once, but that only applies to effects that you have to concentrate to maintain, not effects with a duration.
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  • Duration is a usually determined by successes. The number needed is on the damage and duration chart. You won't need Time....
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  • You aren't casting a spells using your car so much as casting a spells on your car. What is happening depends a lot on what you are trying to accomplish.

    For your example of on the fly casting to reinforce the tires there are several ways your character might accomplish this. A sacrifice would work. Your character might also have worked the proper geometric designs into his hubcaps and he could use those as his focus. You can actually presume that your character has done a lot of setup work for his spells in his off time, so this is perfectly fine.

    On the other hand your...
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    Last edited by Ramnesis; 09-07-2021, 02:45 PM.

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  • I haven't read Victorian Mage, though I need to. I know Sorcerer's Crusade made mention of distances and paths not always being the same. I thought there was something in there about paths not always existing, but I may have just extrapolated that.

    I should say that I don't have a problem using Umbral Realms as locations for alternate Earths, Mars, or whatever. Plenty of Umbral Realms have their own penumbra, their own rules, etc. I don't mind saying "these spirits are special" for a game if I need to. That said, the idea of aliens with avatars seems reasonable enough...
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  • That's my concern, yes. If Martians exist I prefer them to have equal worth and impact as humans. It's not necessary for all stories, but it is for many of the stories I would tell with them. Metaphysically that includes having Avatars (or at least the potential for them) and an impact on the Consensus. Not only does that mean they can't start as spirits, but I also don't think the human consensus could shunt the Martian consensus into the umbra. More likely something would happen to make it impossible to get from one civilization to the other through conventional means.

    In my...
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  • I do like the approach of Mars being its own thing rather than a reflection of Earth's fiction. The Spirit Wilds part also fits in well with how I tend to think of irreconcilable but strongly entrenched reality zones interacting. The one question is does this allow for the possibility that Martian beliefs impact the consensus or not?

    I don't remember exactly how other planets' umbrae work, but it seems to me that it would be very easy to reconcile the Martians having a consensus if they existed in a Horizon or Parallel Dimension style realm, but much harder if they were now a kind...
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    Last edited by Ramnesis; 09-03-2021, 11:26 AM.

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  • My standard policy is that the Consensus either cannot change moral issues (or at least, there's no way of knowing if it does or not). It can adjust the tangible results of behaviors, though, which can give apparent legitimacy or illegitimacy to something.
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  • There’s no indication that moral/social statements are less meaningful in WoD than our world. More likely to be abused maybe, but not less valid.
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  • There's definitely a bit of hazy terminology in the Reality Zones. Sometimes Primal Reality is just the non-technocrat equivalent of Technocratic Reality, and I think we should consider that a part of some other grouping. Other times it earth in a closer to 'natural' state, or beholden to some ancient power, or an otherworldly place. For the purposes of our previous conversation, yes, I think the Technocracy would definitely try to identify and build on the more naturalistic elements of the real Primal Reality Zones. Various factions may seek out the others, but outside of the OoH I don't know...
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    Last edited by Ramnesis; 09-02-2021, 11:50 AM.

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  • Let me clarify, as it sounds like what I was saying might have been unclear.



    It looks to me like you are pointing to the underlined section as your strongest reason for why the Technocracy is rooted in Earthly Foundations. Specifically you are interpreting the reference to earthly physics as a reference to EFs and specifically to the kind listed in the "obvious violations of normal physical laws" section. Now the way I see it, there are a few ways of reading the part you underlined:
    1) There is the way you are interpreting it: "Earthly physics" is
    ...
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  • You mean the one I quoted and made references to? Yes, I was looking at it. I was saying I don’t think the technocratic reality zones reference to earthly physics can be interpreted as purely or even mostly as a reference EFs and I was using the physical law EF section to show why.
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    Last edited by Ramnesis; 09-01-2021, 06:16 PM.

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  • I can't read this section as the Technocracy rooting its work in the Earthly Foundations, for several reasons. Firstly because the suggested list of normal physical laws is so thin. The bullet point you mention has three:

    1) Water not flowing uphill, which I presume is just gravity since it is actually trivial to make water flow upwards using real world physical laws.

    2) Sudden apparition.

    3) Turtles not running really fast, which I presume is a proscription against sudden acceleration since turtle speed would be an oddly specific EF.

    That's...
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  • But what about those principles makes them consistent with the EFs when Traditionalist ones are not? I mean presumably Bernoulli's principle works well with the EFs of gravity and the existence of gas. The first is commonly listed as an EF and the second one plausibly could be. Yet it doesn't seem uniquely well suited. How are airplane wings working with those EFs better than any of the classic magical methods?

    Don't get me wrong, it is plausible and it works well as a setting element if that is what you need for a game. It just doesn't seem like an obvious or inevitable part...
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  • I'm not sure I agree that the Technocracy's paradigms are based more firmly on the more stable points of reality than any of the Traditions. Is there something specific you are thinking of?

    Perhaps the issue is that I don't think things like Coulomb's Law or the Bernoulli Principle are deeply entrenched enough to even approach the level of an EF. Mythic threads perhaps, but not EFs.

    The Technocrats are scientists because they push a coherent, consistent, naturalistic*, and universal** paradigm. They do not use the scientific method as we understand it but that's more...
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  • I can see a number of ways of handling that based on what the focus of the story is. My default explanation would be that it is determined in part by a sort of fundamental character and in part by the influence of its Umbral denizens. The fundamental character would likely be the product of Mars' creation, but much like Earth there is no set answer on how that happened. I would not consider Mars' Primal Reality the fundamental reality of the planet, just its starting point and the valence point which it will currently drift back to if it is abandoned.

    If I wanted to run a game more...
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    Last edited by Ramnesis; 08-31-2021, 01:20 PM.

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Ramnesis
Ramnesis
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Last Activity: Today, 06:21 AM
Joined: 11-05-2013
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