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  • We've had this discussion on here before. I usually put the Homid borns around 80-85% at this point (since the books themselves disagree on the exact number). Then around 10-15% Lupus and 3-8% Metis. Exact numbers aren't ever necessary for any particular game so I don't overly worry about it.



    So if these numbers work for your games then awesome. They are really far off of canon though, if that matters.

    50,000 Garou is ridiculously high. And Garou numbers most certainly do not equal all other Fera combined when the Ratkin and Ananasi have about the same...
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  • I'm pretty sure every game line's powers are more static in comparison to Mage. So there should be a lot of room to improve Disciplines and still keep that intact (if that's your goal).

    We already have certain Disciplines with internal variation at the non elder levels (Salubri in most editions, Quietus more recently and Protean all come to mind). I think giving Vampires a random-ish pool like Gifts is a bit much, but I'm all for having 2 or 3 different powers per level. Especially with something like Obten, where if you lack Occult you may or may not be able to do anything with the...
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  • It isn't a no-no, as you called it. Just that (I would say) from a design perspective, how one of the lines is set up doesn't have much to do with how another line can/should be set up. So Mage being more dynamic doesn't mean Vampire couldn't see improvement to the system by having more choice.

    Edit: also, welcome to these forums ...
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    Last edited by idpersona; 06-20-2017, 04:22 PM.

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  • There's a rather long thread on these forums (here) that is all about the same. It's a long read (up to 20 pages today), but you kind of get the gist of it in the first few pages.
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  • idpersona
    replied to Sealing off the Umbra
    Apocalypse already had a scenario for the Umbra being sealed off. The Umbra being cut off was literally an end game event.

    Either way, as pointed out, the Garou would have ways around the Avatar Storm via their Caerns and Rites. So that particular mechanic is less absolute/game changing. There biggest outcome I think it's just having Garou about Sidestepping unprepared. Even them, they have a decent chance of soaking the damage.
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  • idpersona
    replied to Justice and punishment
    Agree with statements above mine, the mortals asking questions is a problem that the Glasswalkers or Bone Gnawers will deal with. Send a pack or Cliaths or Fosterns to repair the Veil. If the Glasswalkers do it, it is possible that the BN or the new cub in particular will have to pay some sort of token reparation for the task. Especially with this being the cub's first change, no one is going to blame them for it. The idea of "kill him" should never even be on the table. That would be an absurd reaction from the local Garou. A few human lives are never going to compare in worth to a...
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  • I found it fairly cheap and picked it up just to add to my collection. I've been able to use a section here of there to add WoD-ish creatures to my ongoing DnD game. So it isn't a complete loss for me. As a standalone game though, the book was very disappointing.
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  • Those are actually points repeatedly brought up in crossovers. The games weren't designed to interact with each other and so nothing is balanced against each other I agree. NCs were set up specifically to be Garou Antagonists and that adds a lot to why they don't necessarily translate well into other games. I have said in an earlier post that I think it ends up being a translation issue.


    I actually agree with this 100%. Was just pointing out that I've seen Mage players (irl and on these forums) argue the opposite at times. Which in my opinion just kind of ignores the fluff...
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  • Sorry for that tangent. I was just using Rituals as one example of how the crossover system breaks down when involving Mage. Alternatively, Mages can raise the difs for just about everything with little in the way of required Spheres. That accomplishes near the same level of system abuse.

    Ritual abuse it's to gather a Cult, other mages, and use conjunctional magick to get a ton of successes, allowing overcome any problem and any defense by brute strenght. Bonus points if you made the ritual in your "off time" between plays.


    In that example though, there...
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  • Personally I think giving them level 6+ Spheres is a bit much. But several Spheres at 5 with a high Arete would replicate the Charm fine I would think. Whatever works out to giving them around the same amount of net successes to achieve similar results.


    I agree it isn't a normal Charm, since no other spirit type has access to it from what I remember. After all, it's specifically listed under just the Nexus Crawler entry.


    Oh, I realize that just fine. And I think that's a flaw in the system. In broad strokes, I think Mage works fine. But once you get to specifics...
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  • It was/is a blast for what it was/is.

    My point was that just because a Fetish van appears in that book, doesn't necessarily mean that such things can be done in a game that isn't going for that kind of tone....
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  • I would also point out that the Ratkin book was kind of silly at times (Freakachu comes to mind), so a Fetish van may or may not actually be feasible in the current edition.

    I agree though that such a thing should be rare/legendary if it were possible at all.

    That van really did have too many abilities for a level 5 fetish imo....
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  • At this point though, the amount of Lore needed would have to include studies of Nexus Crawlers specifically to know what traits govern what abilities for this specific spirit. I think when you are getting to that level of system mechanics that just isn't available to characters.
    Personally I think the spirit system (Rage/Gnosis/Will/Essence) is incredibly simplified for us the players. In character they should seem a lot more complex than that. I don't think it should be possible to reduce all spirits down to that limited system in character. Nevermind that the character is apparently connecting...
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  • Not that it even matters (for Mage players in particular) but I also feel like this is taking a very heavily system-minded approach to it. Characters don't have access to the system knowledge of how NC's (or any spirit really) does what they do. How or why does the character know to move around a few points of Willpower to cancel out the Reality Warping ability?
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  • idpersona
    replied to Gifts in W20
    And some Gifts are the same between Fera at those levels. So either the writers contradict their own rule (which happens all the time in WoD) or 2 different Fera were taught different Gifts that use the same system.

    Either way, for my games, if a Gift is thematically appropriate for a Fera/Breed/Auspice/Tribe then I don't see why it shouldn't be available. Especially since Garou get a lot more Gifts written than any other Fera. The Corax Gift list for example are kind of pathetic and could use a dozen or 2 more....
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  • idpersona
    replied to Gifts in W20
    I think the Fera type is the rule he/she is thinking of....
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  • Care to elaborate on what sort of advantages they had? Also wondering if this was a GURPS book?...
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  • idpersona
    replied to Potence and Flight Form
    Personally I like that Protean is somewhat open ended that way, but it is kind of annoying that it is only like that for Gangrel (though I do somewhat understand). Given how many vampires end up with Protean to decent levels (even with it being out of Clan) I usually allow for some leeway in forms chosen for everyone.

    I like the fight/flight forms being personalized to individual vampires.
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  • idpersona
    replied to Potence and Flight Form
    Well that isn't going to be a Gangrel's "flight" form. It will be their "fight" form so I don't see why not.


    As well, mechanically they'll be losing echolocation and probably only having a +1 dif to hit instead of +2. These sorts of things are fine as long as the ST keeps them somewhat balanced I think....
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  • idpersona
    replied to Gifts in W20
    I don't remember it being mentioned specifically (which doesn't mean it isn't there) but I would assume it's an oversight.

    Then again, I fall back on knowledge of previous editions whenever I'm unsure of something in W20 and don't feel like taking the time to look it up....
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idpersona
idpersona
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