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[Paradim]

Wishing you the best.

I'm really looking forward to your work. ^.^

[Paradim]

You're hitting on a lot of points I've noticed myself. I get a lot of what you're saying because I've some similar experiences in my own life, due to a lot of the same reasons.

Thank you for sharing this. I think you've phrased things a lot better than I could have.

[Paradim]

Heavy Arms We're just going to need to agree to disagree and leave it at that. I don't really need to say anything more about it.

I'm not hitting you with cudgels or shifting goalposts, and I'm not going to get into a shouting match at you of logical fallacies or things like that. I don't need to do that. I'm sorry if I wasn't clear enough in my posts to make you think that my position has changed. It has not.

And we can just end it there.

[Paradim]

You're really hammering hard on this "calls for civility" thing.

I make an effort to engage with what people are saying. There was a great back and forth between Primordial Newcomer and I earlier in the thread, where we each started with a stance and with patience with each other, we both came to see that there were areas that we could agree on. And that helped us better understanding where we're each coming from. Even on places where we disagree, I don't think they're wrong. That is just differences of opinion and interpretation.

And it's okay to have differences...

[Paradim]

That's kind of what I'm getting at with Lessons just being a philosophy for practicing moderation with. I'd really love for there to be other philosophies. There should be more philosophies. Beasts are so individualized that they should have differences of opinion on this stuff.

If every game has their actors divided on various philosophies, why is it that Beast: The Primordial is stuck with a single one? It just becomes monolithic through representation, and I see that as running counter to one of the core themes of the game, "No Neat Little Boxes"....

[Paradim]

I'm not seeing that as doing much? I mean, the Beast still has someone trying to kill them. Heroes even have Anathema they can pin on a Beast in order to make them more monstrous in order to garner more Followers. But then, whether a Hero has any Followers is entirely up to the Storyteller to decide....

[Paradim]

I'm sorry, I'm not seeing as how teaching lessons provides a defense against Heroes. I can definitely see how such a philosophy and practice would help a Beast feel better about themselves, if they need that, but I can't really see a low Integrity Hero (the kind usually targeting Beasts to kill them) would really be turned away. And there certainly isn't any mechanical benefits to it that I can see.

I could potentially see a high Integrity Hero thinking "Well, I guess those people really did deserve it", but then again if a high Integrity Hero gets put on the trail of...

[Paradim]

What is this defense against a hero?

Controlling your hunger is just practicing moderation, and lessons aren't inherent to the idea of moderating yourself. Lessons is just a single philosophy on how you can moderate yourself. I really wish there were others presented.

(And yeah, Legend and Life could do with some more exploring.)...

[Paradim]

Does a Beast practicing teaching lessons actually stop a Hero from coming after that Beast to kill them?...

[Paradim]

If you think a post is trolling, then report it and let the mods deal with it.

But I don't think that post was trolling. This is about encouraging positive discussion of difficult subject matters. To say that someone has a "valid interpretation" doesn't mean that it is the only interpretation. It is to say that, "Yes, what you are seeing can be problematic and in order to be respectful to the subject matter, it should be examined and addressed for the circumstances it applies in."

It is not a "one-sided call for civility" to say "I...

[Paradim]

Beasts absolutely aren't the worst monsters. The "worst" is a meaningless adjective. Werewolves absolutely do terrible things. So do Vampires and Mages. None of their behaviors should get a pass. None of it should be minimized. They all victimize people.

This is honestly what I've always liked about White Wolf and Onyx Path games. You are the monster. Now deal with it (probably badly, it's meant to be a horror game afterall)....

[Paradim]

I think it's a valid interpretation, actually.

Ultimately, the concept of Lessons is the Beast trying to justify their feeding. It's the stance that these people deserve to have the Beast happen to them (I really struggled for a neutral word there, but... There isn't really, so victimized, abused, harassed, threatened, hurt, etc etc, pick a word for you). But the object of the "Lesson" doesn't even need to be legitimate. It could be the Beast deciding to punish someone because they didn't wear green on St. Paddy's day or that they walked and chewed bubblegum at the same...

[Paradim]

Yeah, this is more what I mean by being more developed. How Lessons fits into gaining Satiety, for identifying targets, for determining greater Satiety values for feeding....

[Paradim]

Ooohkay, so what you're saying is that lessons could be used to develop the framework for what counts as a greater satiety feeding.

I get that. I could see Lessons as being useful for doing that.

It would be nice if the books actually developed that idea....

[Paradim]

I'm still not following you on this. What do you mean by "acts that could be mistaken as a lesson tend to get more satiety"?

The best I've got for what you mean there is the +1 modifier for "Fitting with your Beast's specific preferences"? But "specific preferences" has no grounding in "lessons"...

When you're talking about the hunger for prey and hunger for transgression, I'm not sure what you mean by that, either. Would you mind expanding on what you mean some more, so I can better understand?...

[Paradim]

A plot I'm working out for my own game will actually use a Cult. My player doesn't want their Beast to go actively making a Cult (just doesn't fit the character's mentality or attitude). So something I'm going to be doing to show how the Beast's actions are impacting the setting, I'm going to have mortals pull together as a Cult of the Beast themselves, and then see how the Beast handles learning of that. I might do something regarding the concept of "Lessons" in it, as that seems like a good place to fit how the Beast's actions are fitting into the setting....

[Paradim]

Cults definitely are interesting, though that is more of an interaction between Beasts and Mortals, I think? But not all Beasts do Cults.

I'm glad you're seeing my viewpoint on this. I don't think that Lessons are "bad" or "shouldn't be in the game". I can absolutely see a place for it in the game, just... not how it was implemented.

Ultimately, it's just my opinion, and we've got the books that we've got. I'm making do for my own game (and my Beast player doesn't like Lessons either, I quote "They take away my character's agency for no reason...

[Paradim]

Satchel actually ignored a lot of my post and just focused on the examples, nitpicking them, while not addressing anything else I said. It's why I don't want to argue with them. It doesn't help. Like saying "They" is in reference to other Beasts? Well, no shit. So WHO are these other Beasts? Is it in reference to ALL Beasts? ALL Beasts do this? ALL Beasts talk about Lessons? It's this completely universal thing for an entire supernatural species? What social teaching do ALL Werewolves have on how to behave? What about ALL Mages? Or ALL Vampires?

It doesn't fit....

[Paradim]

Um.... Well, the Obcasus Initiate merit has being a Beast as a prerequisite, and that you have experienced Guidance as described on page 141 of the Player's Guide.

The Player's Guide only mentions the Insatiable in a small sidebar on page 157 and it's not in any context of them being considered Beasts.

Overall, I'd say "No, as Insatiable are different, if similar, creatures to Beasts and would have a different connection to the Dark Mother." I don't think the Insatiable really work together, either, so Obcasus Rites as how Beasts use them as social things,...

[Paradim]

I'm really not wanting to have an argument about it. Especially not with you, Satchel. I was responding to Primordial Newcomer's statement.