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[Paradim]

I don't really see it as being an issue of low integrity. But more a factor of the Primordial Dream pushing Heroes to kill....

[Paradim]

A problem here... Is that the position of a character that can be a lighter shade of grey than a Beast and is open to being convinced that the Beast isn't strictly just a monster, would probably be a lot better served by a Hunter, than a Hero.

When you have Hunters and Heroes in the same system, they need important distinctions, not just system effects but what they can do for the story overall. Where that falls might be open to a lot of interpretation and preference, though.

But I think it's important to consider the place of Hunters when talking of Heroes as well...

[Paradim]

Keep in mind that the Pure and Seers weren't really playable for the longest time.

Still, I'm not arguing for Heroes to be playable. "Splats" here is more for a useful term for Heroes with noticeable differences in their own capabilities and the means by which they persue their own goals. Maybe it's a poor term that introduces needless confusion.

Basically, I want two separate encounters with Heroes to feel very different and introduce different conflicts and dangers. And I'd really appreciate the books supporting that....

[Paradim]

Thank you! Was going nuts last night trying to find it....

[Paradim]

"Splats" for antagonists certainly isn't anything new. Mages still have Paths and Ministries for their Exarch supporting antagonists. Werewolf has separate tribes for the Anshenga as well as different types of Hosts. The variety is very helpful because they present different challenges for PCs to have to face. A conflict with Predator Kings could be very different from a conflict with Fire-Touched.

Heroes could use more support in some fashion.

[Paradim]

I was just struck by a thought, and I wanted to get it out before I head to bed.

What if different "splats" of Heroes emphasized the enforced lack of agency on a Beast's life? For example, the classic Hero striving to kill a Beast would be an example of enforcing a lack of agency on a Beast for avoiding conflict. Someone is directly trying to kill you and they won't stop fighting. The Beast has to deal with that somehow.

What other types of Heroes could there be that mess with a Beast's sense of agency over their own life?

[Paradim]

So... There's a lot to think about here and I'm probably going to be musing this over on my way to bed and probably think about it more while at work. But there's an aspect of this that immediately jumped out to me that I wanted to ask some clarification on.



How do you think this perspective fits with the establishment of the dynamic of Heroes and Beasts as being inherently asymmetrical instead of mirroring each other? For example, you describe here that this framing emphasizes an instinctive antagonism between Heroes and Beasts, but this inherent antagonism seems...

[Paradim]

Huh... The fear of one's own darker impulses, with a denial of them that leads to them rejecting such desires and hate those who acknowledge them because they see a reflection of themsleves?

....would make a lot of sense.......

[Paradim]

I guess what I'm considering as a takeaway for differentiating the experiences of the Astral between Mages and Beasts... Is that I should focus on Mages experiencing the Astral as a more linear path (for loose definition of "linear") as a set of waypoints that can require checks or trials before proceeding further to their destination... Which emphasizes exploration, testing, and building of understanding before reaching a new set of challenges or plateau of awareness. Meanwhile, I should focus on Beasts experiencing the Astral as more of... A range of territories, I guess, that they...

[Paradim]

"A person's weaknesses are the most powerful tools that they possess. What defines us more in our minds? We torment ourselves daily with what we fail to accomplish, chiding our laziness, our own incompetence, our inability to achieve our dreams. We blame some demon for our foils, and oh, how strong that demon must be to shackle our capability so! And that is why our souls use these goetia for its defense, for what greater power do we have than the powers we've tenderly fed with all our doubts, fears and disappointment? And people's weaknesses are well fed indeed, are they not?" - Daniel...

[Paradim]

I think taking this perspective would likely be giving disservice to both Mage and Beast. While I can see the appeal in not treading over covered ground before.... It's problematic in that it assumes this IS covered ground from before, and that is not necessarily the case. First, there is an issue that Astral Realms is a book from First Edition and that carries system issues from a previous edition. Second, and more importantly in my mind, Astral Realms is a book focused on the perspective of Mages.

This is a huge distinction in my mind, because while Beasts sometimes associate...

[Paradim]

I have interest in that as well....