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  • To go on a long tangent on this a little, there are apparently a bunch of complications to working this out:

    1) China has a bunch of imperial census going back over a thousand years and those tend to provide similar and sometimes lower totals than estimates of European population, while modern estimates can provide much higher numbers... but it's difficult to seriously take some of these that estimate the imperial Chinese government was low counting but up a degree of up to 50-100% (the bureaucracy had it's limitations, but counting every one in two or two in three taxable heads?)....
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  • I think that sounds roughly correct Kyuendo. I tend to think that "science" is fine, in the sense of "The scientific method still makes logical sense in this world, and they've thought of it", and the problem is more that they don't have many scientific instruments that can actually work on Essence, and replication is much harder (largely because of much larger variability in underlying laws and conditions, like you suggest), so the scope for discovering usable and true scientific objectivity / "laws" that can generate technological innovation is limited. Combined...
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  • Ghosthead
    replied to Exalted: Essence
    Sunder the Gold, that sounds a bit like being burned out on Exalted; sounds like it's worth embracing the flavour that you're into right now, but I bet at some point you'll turn around and be like "Man, all these hyper-driven, naturally skilled, dynamic heroes are getting a bit samey... what about a story where it's just, like, a fairly ordinary guy/girl who suddenly has mystic powers thrust upon them in a sudden bolt of enlightenment? Like Aang or Neo.". And the fire and magic of Exalts will be back for you.
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  • Ghosthead
    replied to Exalted: Essence
    I think it is probably a worthwhile thing to do. Wouldn't have made any sense in prior editions because "The setting *is* defined by the mechanics!" (which Ex3 abandons) and because the turnover of splat books is quick enough that you're basically just eating into your potential audience, but with 3e's long turnarounds and mechanical elaboration it makes sense.

    Seems pretty likely to me in ways to be close to "Exalted 3e rules, but without as many Charms" (though I won't be surprised if the authors have other ideas!) but there's probably going to be a fair sized...
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  • As I understand it, the thing with the Workings system is that it's meant to be fairly narrative and contextual and doesn't care too much about the form of things.

    So it strives to avoid things like "Actually I just make this totally un-magical vehicle much more efficient than completely magically constructed vehicle, at a lower Working level", because that's potentially making things with different aesthetics having different Working costs. (Many examples much described in lots of "modern magic" stuff, and I expect M:tA folk are old hands at these).
    ...
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  • Infernals 2e did suffer from real bad integration of who the Infernals were as heroes and people and the Charmsets that were built to support them, which preceded as separate depictions (former bad, latter well received but possibly with some problems as a part of the whole).

    Who are these people as heroes, what are their relationships and loyalties, what are the cultures they are bound to, what are their ambitions, what action do they engage in within Creation? (I feel after 2e Infernals, I do not really know). Their Charms then need to support whatever these are, whether we're interested...
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  • Probably (2e's) Ebon Dragon right now:

    "Ah yes, heavy is the head that doesn't wear the crown and then lives in eternal luxury in the Pleasure Dome (such humility, merely the supreme generalissimo-for-immortal-life of a vast divine bureaucracy that reaches into every facet of Creation! only the loved and object of every god's envy, bestriding the Games as the star athlete on an eternal victory lap!), then at some point withdraws one's favour from their Chosen following which they were *totally coincidentally* betrayed and banished to the Jade Prison, for all eternity, until *I*...
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  • I don't know that I'd exactly say it's a reaction against 3e in a sense of "Don't use 3e's system for Exalted; use me instead". Of course that was part of the marketing, it's not totally reducible or largely to that. But I do think in many ways (and obviously I'll never know as he will never say) it is Kevin Crawford's pretty clever take trying to built a setting from ground up to do lots of what it was apparent by 2e that a good subset of Exalted fans wanted Exalted to do, which it perhaps did not do well.

    So you have a setting history that has lots of utterly weird trans-human...
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  • A lot of this discussion can get pushed onto a false conception that its about small, human stories vs cosmic powered, inhuman stories. That's a false dichotomy - this is deftly demonstrated by "The Sandman", for example.

    But those stories that are cosmic powered and human have specific ways and means to do that, and those have to built in at ground level by designers... (Otherwise you can easily slip into late 2e coldly transhuman cynic mode.)

    It's also about a disagreement about whether it is fine for events in Creation to really only be a smaller subset of...
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    Last edited by Ghosthead; 12-01-2019, 08:16 AM.

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  • Lanic, you're probably right that I really should have said "This *will* happen, canonically, and it's just a matter of time and accumulation of experience, but will be mechanically supported" rather than "could".
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  • Lanic, sure an optional deutero-canon, Infernals-Gaiden, sidebar might be a way to go. I guess I am speaking more in a position of where I would think the developers would be sketching out the main direction and why they should, assuming limited resources.

    Putting in optional paragraphs / few pages of "What If....?" seems (tentatively) totally fine - like, to use a probably even more niche case example, maybe someone does want to play a game where Dragonbloods learn SMA and become an equal to the Celestials through it, or if someone does want to play a game where the Forest...
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  • Ghosthead
    replied to Dynast Abolitionist
    Lanic, unfortunately I've misled you with a paraphrase of what am I inferring they tried to do and put it in quotes mark, not actually quoting anyone

    Edit: To add, I do think you're correct if you're also saying that, in a more general sense less about the Immaculate Philosophy specifically (or the Evil Anime Church trope), that the Realm is meant to be a more pragmatic treatment of empire than in purely sensationalizing pulp fantasy and D&D offshoots thereof. The intent absolutely is offering a perspective that hews close to real huge central empires like Rome and China, and...
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    Last edited by Ghosthead; 11-30-2019, 08:28 AM.

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  • Ghosthead
    replied to Dynast Abolitionist
    The Wizard of Oz, that's an interesting qualification and probably correct.

    On a bit of a tangent to the issue of slavery in the Realm I'm now thinking afresh about how radical it was and a statement of intent in tone and theme for Exalted to introduce the Immaculate Philosophy in its first book.

    "Here's a game that's all about the being the Chosen of the Gods. (And now, most other, popular fantasy games to this point tend to present this idea through Paladins and Clerics).

    And now we will immediately introduce ideas deconstructing the moral superiority...
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  • In terms of "holes", the context should have been clear, but if not, I am continuing on from ideas from Blaque's post in which he talks about Charms to support Abilities which cannot be present due to the underlying logic in Infernal Charms. I'm not talking about holes as in the Sidereal set, or simply limitations of wordcount. Intrinsic holes which exist due to structure. (To Blaque the section from Blaque's post. "No Infernal is ever a sailor because Yozis don't use boats". Or equally you could say, "No Lunar will ever have specific Bureaucracy Charms, because that is...
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  • Let me preface this with saying, I love Ability based Exalted; it's a huge selling point of the game, that fundamentally a good part of why we all got into this was setting because we all thought that heroes doing chi-fueled feats of awesome and stylish superhuman ability is amazing and something which was very unique, certainly when attached to a setting with the mood and ideas and influences underlying Creation.

    And I think that's why it resonated with me when Holden and John made a great pitch for emphasizing up-selling *all* 3e Exalted as heroes with Ability based Charms as far...
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  • Ghosthead
    replied to How do people feel about TN shifting?
    In practice, sure. The Sidereals disadvantage is really "Short, strong, limited Charm trees with deliberate holes" and to allow this disadvantage to remain meaningful "No custom Charms" exists mostly to prevent them filling the deliberate holes by copy-pasting Charms from DB+Solars, right? You won't see Custom Charms in Solars because frankly they're powerful enough to do whatever they want anyway* and there's no obvious model for what they want that they don't already have. Would probably not be so much the case with Sidereals were custom Charms actually freely permitted but...
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  • Ghosthead
    replied to How do people feel about TN shifting?
    .................
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    Last edited by Ghosthead; 11-29-2019, 04:51 PM. Reason: edit: weird random doublepost

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  • Ghosthead
    replied to Dynast Abolitionist
    I would tend to have an intuition on abolitionism, in a strict sense, and as a movement, as unlikely in the Realm, as this would require staking out a moral absolutist position that is at odds with how the Realm's religion works. As a structurally hierarchical form without radical commitments to too many further unambiguous, moral imperatives and religious laws (as opposed rather to interpretable aphorism and metaphor) which would constrict Dragonblooded and Sidereal freedom to act in whatever means they deem justify the ends.

    Abolitionism in our world came from a combination of...
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  • Ghosthead
    replied to How do people feel about TN shifting?
    That's a reasonable prediction (if they keep the design features like that, it seems hard to avoid), but that's never line of argument has been a good counter to early game "trap" bad builds which have big disparities, in the range of the game where most everyone plays, and which people generally go through to get to "eventually".

    Ox-Body sucking in 2e was a problem never really solved by "Eventually high essence Solar players, if their characters survive that long, will generally get the idea". If you have beginning players outside of the forum conversation...
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  • In terms of what that comparison and framing suggests. I'm interested in how we've got where we have got, and interested in deconstructing the idea of whether the schedule of 3e is effective in terms of appealing to a new audience, or an existing one. Does the release schedule make sense or has it been reliant on residual goodwill? And so on. Is it something a developer would choose to do, or is it a way of implementing a game design that is a legacy from when they had the resources to produce it (or at least thought they did)? (And I guess, at the extreme Is "Exalted 3e" in some senses...
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Ghosthead
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