World of Darkness: Gotham - A Classic World of Darkness Chat

[Jinxed Oracle]

Dear Onyx Path Publishing;

We're World of Darkness: Gotham and we're seeking players and Storytellers in an engaging crossover-orientated game. You will choose from one of four venues - Vampire: the Masquerade, Werewolf: the Apocalypse, Mage: the Ascension, or Mortal. This is a world where nothing is free and everything must be fought for or stolen but can be claimed the same way from you.

We offer:
An active community;
Active Storytellers;
Levels of involvement: from part-timers all the way to hardcore players;
Dedicated Staff who constantly strive to bring a rewarding experience;

We seek:
Compelling and rich characters;
Players who want challenging and serious stories;
Storytellers capable of leading intense and engaging stories;
Vampire and Werewolf Storytellers in particular;

We are a firm game with high standards which only furthers the number of rich and compelling characters found within. As said before, there is nothing free in this world and the price of failure is very steep indeed. In many ways, the Staff strives to stick to core beliefs and themes of each game line as well as enforcing exactly why there is the Masquerade, the Veil, and the Rule of Shade.

Also in preparation of the release of Mage: the Ascension 20th Anniversary Edition, we are preparing everything back end for an update to the new rules set!

You can find out main website here:
www.wodgotham.com

Our forums here:

http://www.wodgotham.com/forum/phpBB3/index.php

Our Wiki here:
http://wiki.wodgotham.co...dex.php?title=Main_Page

Also look us up on Facebook: Wod Gotham Rpg
www.facebook.com/WoDGotham

[Darling_Rose]

I'll have a look when Changeling is added. If it's not the Classic 5 systems with crossover I'm not interested.

[HammerofHeaven]

Hmm. I wonder if frustration has led to some of the more..harsh notes within your mage character creation section, or the mistaken belief that yelling at players will get them to respond. As a bit of friendly advice? I'd lay off the "You're doing it wrong" messages with regard to player notices (the ones about "being a special snowflake" and "No semi awakened anything, dammit" are particularly egregious.) this from someone genuinely interested until I got yelled at by your wiki, twice. Happy hunting.

[Demon Cat]

Topic moved to "Gatherings"

Enjoy your Gotham game, I hope it goes well

[Jinxed Oracle]

@ Demon Cat: Apologies.

@HammerofHeaven: There will be some who are offended by frank comments about our policies involving snowflakes. Snowflakes have no place in our setting and we make it very clear. Through the time we've been established and accepting players, the majority of those who do find sublet commentaries, such as the ones you addressed, insulting are those who would wish to disobey them. Snowflakes ruin games. We will not budge from this and stating it in a straightforward, perhaps harsh manner, is often the only way to get through the heads of people.

[JimB]

For all it's worth, I'm not offended, but I personally wouldn't end up playing a game that seems to take such an antagonistic stance right off the bat. The repeated use of an insulting term and the insistence that it's the only was to get it through my head (and you are talking about my head, since you say it's for all people) indicates a low opinion of me that I wouldn't want to put up with in game.

I'm not arguing for the sake of arguing, but just giving you my input so you can decide what to do with it as regards your approach to players. If you decide to keep your current approach, hey, no skin off my ass.

[NFI]

Everything was looking good for me, warnings included - if anything, the harsh weeding out of the overly-sensitive, desperately "special" was only added appeal. But then I saw Camarilla only and I lost all interest.

[Octavo]

Snowflakes have no place in our setting and we make it very clear. Through the time we've been established and accepting players, the majority of those who do find sublet commentaries, such as the ones you addressed, insulting are those who would wish to disobey them. Snowflakes ruin games. We will not budge from this and stating it in a straightforward, perhaps harsh manner, is often the only way to get through the heads of people.

I think it's more important for a game to be welcoming to new players than it is for it to be without "snowflakes."

Werewolf: the Apocalypse lead dev, Stew Wilson, posted a well written counterpoint to this kind of game design.

http://theonyxpath.com/the-end-of-screw-you-hippie-game-design/

[Chaostrophy]

The harsh phrasing didn't disturb or offend me, I can see the possible reasons behind them (though I've only read the Werewolf parts).

I'm during the concept write-up phase, I hope I'll get to play soon. The only thing I'm worried about is the technical part (I've never used a wiki format or played a chat-based game before and my IRL "computers knowledge" is rather... horrible). I'm also sorry to see you don't do prelude games any more.

[Jinxed Oracle]

@JimB:

the insistence that it's the only was to get it through my head (and you are talking about my head, since you say it's for all people) indicates a low opinion of me that I wouldn't want to put up with in game.

Please don't misquote me. No where did I say it's the only way. I said often times it is the most effective way to make a point. Also earlier in my statement I spoke about the majority of players who find such statements offensive. Those are who this is directed at. If you feel attacked, then it isn't our intention or fault.

@Luxosceles: Your opinion is noted, even if it is a bit hypocritical with the hinted rudeness. The simple fact is: We have gained quality players who understand the themes and goals of the game, who wish to create complex characters within the setting without the need for demanding special attention, all through the many areas we advertise. They work within the scope of the game and the room for in game growth is massive. We have a strong dedicated community. We will add to that list and those who have no desire to be here will find somewhere else to go.

@NFI: At the current time, sorry, the Camarilla is the only sect of Vampires playable.

@Octavo: On the opposite side of that coin: The entire ending statement of that article states that the game is the gaming group's to do with as they please. It may not be what others would do, or even what the developers of the game would have chosen, but it is the game we choose.

@Chaostrophy: I look forward to seeing you in the chat, sir.

To everyone: We make our opinions about "snowflake" characters very clear from the get-go because it saves the Storytellers time and effort in the Proposal section of character approval. Otherwise everyone would want to be the one exception to the rule. It's the nature of the beast.

The Owners and Staff have been in the community for many, many years. They've seen what happens when expectations aren't firmly set. They know all too well what happens when exceptions are made to the rules for preferential players and those who nag and complain. It's unfair to Storytellers to have to explain away why snowflake characters are in the game world and fashion stories for them because their time is not infinite and must be conserved and pooled to the greatest effect. It's unfair to other players because they must strain to rationalize why some Storyteller favorite or whiner got to play some outlandish character type not in the scope of the setting and deal with the consequences. Quality players understand this and thank us for preserving some sense of sanity which is why we embarked on the project in the first place. To have an oasis in the sea of self-absorbed entitled petty crap we kept seeing over and over again online. They seek to work with us and the community, not rail against it like petulant children being told that they can't have their favorite sweet at the supermarket and must make do with another treat.

In the end, we have a firm scope that's manageable to our game. We state it clearly and are unapologetic for it. We even explain why. The fact that this is lost on some voices here on the forum is unfortunate, but then they area all free to go elsewhere. Better still, they can endeavor to fund their own sites, create their own games and run it for themselves. Put your own time and effort on the line and create your vision.

Finally to all the others out there, we are a friendly, pleasant, and supportive community but we have our standards and our expectations. The players of our community share in these or else they wouldn't be there. To those high quality players who don't take insult to broadly issued statements, we welcome you and our Staff will strive to give you powerful stories and allow your character to grow and evolve. To those who do take insult, this is not the game for you.

[HammerofHeaven]

wait wait..I'm "overly sensitive" because I don't like being insulted even as I'm reading the information? LOL okay. I'm sure your "Quality players" are a joy to be around. Good job.

[Ashton]

Well, I happen to play on the site in question and have to say when I joined the game nine months ago I really didn't give much thought to the insulting comments that are being referred to. I spent a day looking over the Wiki and absorbing a message that felt right for me. I've been playing World of Darkness since the very first edition. I've run chats, I've played in chats, and I know how people can be and how things can develop in on line communities. Over time, you can try the nice polite approach, and then go harsher when that doesn't work, and then even harsher and hope that people will finally read and understand. The sad thing is, people still don't read or think the rules don't apply to them and want to by pass the system.

Opinions and thoughtful criticism is certainly welcome and could indeed lead to a shift in the way certain things were phrased. The question is though, would it make a difference? Would those who take offense to the stated restrictions or nature of the game change their opinion based on that? Would you be one of the people that only want to play in a game if they allowed X, Y, or Z character type? I wanted a game that I could take seriously, and not be surrounded by drama and test a few boundaries. I found that in spades. The game might not have hordes of players in it, but as JO stated, we prefer quality and substance over cookie cutter and snowflakes. No one is saying there isn't a place for those types of characters in games. The site Owner and Staff just feel that it is not what they want in their game. It is good that people read the message and take from it what they do, if the message resonates with you and you want to give it a try then that is a good thing. If it doesn't, than that is fine too and at least you can move on and find the type of place you want if you haven't already.

I for one am glad that I gave the game a chance.

Thanks for your time

[JimB]

Nowhere did I say it's the only way.

Ah, yes, you did use the word "often." My apologies (and I mean that sincerely, despite what's to follow) for misinterpreting you; I was so annoyed by your lack of qualifiers defining all people as needing such treatment that I failed to notice you did at least qualify we only need those statements more than half the time.

Well, I happen to play on the site in question and have to say when I joined the game nine months ago I really didn't give much thought to the insulting comments that are being referred to. I spent a day looking over the Wiki and absorbing a message that felt right for me.

To each his own. Let it be clear that I have nothing to say, negative or positive, about the site or its community. I've never been and have no experience with either. I am only criticizing the sales pitch the site makes to try to attract newcomers, and how I find it makes me feel leery rather than welcome. The staff, or at least its representative, seems committed to maintaining that first impression, which is its right, and if that works for the game's community, then that's fine.

[jellybean]

Top ten reasons I play on Gotham...

10. It's fresh, different, and intelligent. They have taken the old games and the old settings and the old themes and updated them while still keeping to the spirit of cWoD. It makes the game more interesting and compelling - relevant to today and not the late 90s or 00s.

9. Awesome Character Creation and vetting. It's rigorous and separates the wheat from the chaff fast. I got a lot of ST attention through the process and they helped me create a character that was easily plugged into the major stories right away which was more important to me than to have my favorite character type.

8. It stays true to the assertion that it's a serious game with mature themes. It's a dark World of Darkness. It's not sometimes the World of Darkness and sometimes the World of Sparklies.

7. It's brutal. There are consequences for character actions. STs don't water the consequences down in fear of someone throwing a hissy fit

6. It's rewarding. Even though the game is brutal, if you put your character out there and do well you can achieve a lot. Who doesn't love minions?!

5. The Staff is dedicated and on top of things. From what I've seen the staff is small, but very active. They keep the place running smooth with no disruptions. They are available for scenes a lot and are eager to keep players engaged. Awesome story content. Their stories are original and complex. It's not the usual dungeon crawl or monster flavor of the month crap.

4. Great players and characters. The players I meet have compelling characters that are fun to interact with and most of them know how to play off other players well and stir things up.

3. There are no cliques. I can say that all of us work hard to include people right away. How else will the Collective thrive?

2. Amazing freedom of movement. The game has by far the most impressive and efficient tools for moving around and affecting the setting that I have ever seen. Other games I've played have done most things through forums and if you ask a ST to help you pull off something sneaky, they are limited in what they can and will do. Response time can be a trick too. In Gotham there are amazing features which help me pull things off I couldn't do anywhere else with my character. It's all done through automated systems that help resolve issues quickly and keep plots moving along. I scarcely can keep up with all that's going on because the STs are so attentive and turn around responses within hours and not days.

And the number one reason I play on Gotham....

1. I get to relax after work and role play with grown ups and no OOC drama.

[HammerofHeaven]

How it could be worded to make this easier for yourselves:

"Hi Perspective new player!
Welcome to our forum, we have a wonderful crew of ST's and Players who are all working hard to make the World of Darkness both feel 'realistic' and for continuity to flow well. As such, We reserve the right to say no to any "uncommon" or "extremely rare" template/application. This insures that not only do we have a viable, and fun 'World of Darkness' but that our long time players do not feel cheated for not being allowed to play some of the more obscure breeds/clans/kiths/traditions. We apologize for this inconvenience, but this is a hard 'No' on obscure templates. If you'd like to discuss how to bring your character into line with our character creation requirements, please email the moderator/ST for your chosen group, and they'll be happy to assist you. -- Thank you, the staff of Gotham"

See? a courteous, and inviting message with none of the vitriol. also, it increases new player/ST communication, and allows ST's a greater hand in the creation of characters for the game, which leads to less rejected applications in the long run.