Open Letter to By Night Studios

[Chattnos]

A developer has spilled the beans. It has been publicly been stated that "deciding members" of By Night Studios "are uncompromisingly against Requiem/NWoD".
Please reconsider, some of the MET/LARP community are fans of both.
And if your group is not willing to release rules set specifically NWoD 2.0, please sell or transfer the IP for NWoD liveaction to someone who will.

[Leetsepeak]

Keeping the IP for the purpose of preventing people from making it seems churlish.

[Heavy Arms]

Can we get a link to the statement? Do we know that BNS is even sitting on the IP, or did they just license the cWOD MET rights and OPP could do nWOD MET if they wanted?

Also... it seems like this isn't really the right place for this. And any sort of campaign to get nWOD 2e MET stuff should probably go to... BNS or CCP, not OPP.

[Chattnos]

Can we get a link to the statement? Do we know that BNS is even sitting on the IP, or did they just license the cWOD MET rights and OPP could do nWOD MET if they wanted?

Also... it seems like this isn't really the right place for this. And any sort of campaign to get nWOD 2e MET stuff should probably go to... BNS or CCP, not OPP.

It has repeatedly stated on these forums (and the old) that BNS has the LARP rights to both OWoD & NWoD.
This is just one of those instances.

http://forum.theonyxpath.com/forum/main-category/main-forum/the-new-world-of-darkness/vampire-the-requiem/30311-met-getting-these-updates?p=30325#post30325

Now I and others have asked when BNS plans to release their version of MET Requiem. The responses have always been to me a little cold.
Mostly a wait and see if there is a market kind of response. But as an ex-Camarilla member I kept getting the OWoD snob vibe from the company.
Now I admit it was purely speculation on my part based on the lack of NWoD chatter from company. And some things I hear thru Cam channels.

But then I saw this.

http://forum.theonyxpath.com/forum/main-category/main-forum/the-new-world-of-darkness/vampire-the-requiem/304783-rules-set-for-a-new-requiem-larp-b-s-or-met?p=305080#post305080

(I have a screen capture BTW)

Not looking to start any flames. I just want light a fire to get development on MET/LARP rules for NWoD 2.0 rolling.
I don't care who does it. Just that it gets DONE.
And since can't find a web page for BNS(No FB and Twitter don't count) I posted this here because they have been known to monitor.

My question to By Night Studios is this, how can the NWoD LARP community assist you in facilitating a release of NWoD 2.0 LARP rules set?

[Zephlin]

I've always felt that Requiem/nWoD got an unfair treatment when it came to MET. Even though the Camarilla seemed rather interested when the books originally came out, the lack of interest in the other venues (even though Awakening got a POD book) left me rather disheartened. Can't say I'm too surprised by their attitudes though. The old schoolers refusing to stop playing and running their LARP and tabletop chronicles even when the cWoD books went out of print is what lead to the release of the 20th Anniversary Editions. It's a really shame that it's almost a decade since the nWoD and Requiem MET books were released and we likely won't get second edition books because exclusively cWoD players look down on nWoD and its venues just because their books came out first and have more support.

[Chattnos]

I've always felt that Requiem/nWoD got an unfair treatment when it came to MET. Even though the Camarilla seemed rather interested when the books originally came out, the lack of interest in the other venues (even though Awakening got a POD book) left me rather disheartened. Can't say I'm too surprised by their attitudes though. The old schoolers refusing to stop playing and running their LARP and tabletop chronicles even when the cWoD books went out of print is what lead to the release of the 20th Anniversary Editions. It's a really shame that it's almost a decade since the nWoD and Requiem MET books were released and we likely won't get second edition books because exclusively cWoD players look down on nWoD and its venues just because their books came out first and have more support.

I saw that too in the Org. But even in the Org there were people who wanted to play NWoD. Though like any venue it varied from domain to domain.
I really think there is a market out there. But if we don't get a response or By Night doesn't show any movement in that direction, we could always look into the legality of a home brewed set rules done as open source.

[Captain America]

Blood and Smoke and God Machine ARE the 2E I thought they stated. And that there is a 2E vamp book but if you have Blood and Smoke it isn't needed as it is the same book with a new cover and some minor type facing corrections. Though this is stated in other forums not about players looking for games.

[Chattnos]

Blood and Smoke and God Machine ARE the 2E I thought they stated. And that there is a 2E vamp book but if you have Blood and Smoke it isn't needed as it is the same book with a new cover and some minor type facing corrections. Though this is stated in other forums not about players looking for games.

You missed the point. There are no Blood & Smoke nor God Machine compatible LARP rules. And it sounds like we won't be getting any!
There are complete new mechanics. Wholesale rewrite of Disciplines. The beat system and new experience cost, conditions, change in combat, Predator's Aura all need LARP updates.

[MrMarkers]

Almost all of the NWoD games don't work as a LARP. They were designed to be table top games first, with a very tight focus on personal horror centered around your group of players. With the exception of Vampire: the Requiem, and perhaps Changeling: the lost, you gain almost nothing by making the game a LARP. The problem with V:tR and C;tL in LARPs though is that you need too big of a player base to fill out the sub factions for the game to seem like it's working organically. It's hard to get enough players per covenant or court to make the faction politics function well. And STing the missing roles is a nightmare.

So you either have a small enough group in NWoD games to just run table top, or just not enough players to make a LARP run smoothly. Requiem has been the biggest venue in Mind's Eye Society for like 5 years now. It works because the players can use nearby games to run their covenants properly while still keeping city politics going. In a troupe game you just won't have the numbers to keep it alive and fun.

However almost all of the OWoD games are simple enough to make a LARP out of, they basically all boil down to there's a team of good guys and a team of bad guys let's play one or the other. They all have easy to understand hierarchies of positions, powers, and status. This works well for a midsized larp (15-30 people), but works terribly for Requiem, where at most you'd have 2 or 3 covenants represented well, or even worse as is often the case, only one, with 2 or 3 players for the remaining Covenants.

I'm not sure if I'm communicating my key idea here. Basically, By Night Studios needs to market to Troupe games, as the Orgs are going to trudge along and do whatever they want. The OWoD games are much better suited to independent troupe play, and also they're going to sell some books to the old schoolers who have retired. Since BNS put out their new books I've seen a lot of decade old players want to start new LARPs up. The same guys who never wanted to play in OWBN or MES.

I think BNS know,s just as well as most of us do, that the NWoD games don't make good LARPs that are easy to play without a huge playerbase. So they'd rather put out games that can A) function as troupe games, and B) draw the most hype and the OWoD games just have better brand recognition.

Maybe I'm wrong but that's how I see it.
-Mark

PS: Sorry if this sounds edition war-y, it's not I love NWoD games and OWoD games, I just think that OWoD games tend to make better LARPs, and NWoD games tend to make better table tops.

[Chattnos]

Almost all of the NWoD games don't work as a LARP. They were designed to be table top games first, with a very tight focus on personal horror centered around your group of players. With the exception of Vampire: the Requiem, and perhaps Changeling: the lost, you gain almost nothing by making the game a LARP. The problem with V:tR and C;tL in LARPs though is that you need too big of a player base to fill out the sub factions for the game to seem like it's working organically. It's hard to get enough players per covenant or court to make the faction politics function well. And STing the missing roles is a nightmare.

So you either have a small enough group in NWoD games to just run table top, or just not enough players to make a LARP run smoothly. Requiem has been the biggest venue in Mind's Eye Society for like 5 years now. It works because the players can use nearby games to run their covenants properly while still keeping city politics going. In a troupe game you just won't have the numbers to keep it alive and fun.

However almost all of the OWoD games are simple enough to make a LARP out of, they basically all boil down to there's a team of good guys and a team of bad guys let's play one or the other. They all have easy to understand hierarchies of positions, powers, and status. This works well for a midsized larp (15-30 people), but works terribly for Requiem, where at most you'd have 2 or 3 covenants represented well, or even worse as is often the case, only one, with 2 or 3 players for the remaining Covenants.

I'm not sure if I'm communicating my key idea here. Basically, By Night Studios needs to market to Troupe games, as the Orgs are going to trudge along and do whatever they want. The OWoD games are much better suited to independent troupe play, and also they're going to sell some books to the old schoolers who have retired. Since BNS put out their new books I've seen a lot of decade old players want to start new LARPs up. The same guys who never wanted to play in OWBN or MES.

I think BNS know,s just as well as most of us do, that the NWoD games don't make good LARPs that are easy to play without a huge playerbase. So they'd rather put out games that can A) function as troupe games, and B) draw the most hype and the OWoD games just have better brand recognition.

Maybe I'm wrong but that's how I see it.
-Mark

PS: Sorry if this sounds edition war-y, it's not I love NWoD games and OWoD games, I just think that OWoD games tend to make better LARPs, and NWoD games tend to make better table tops.

BOLLOCKS! OWoD started as table only as well. And unlike Requiem MET, its original MET rules were a bit different from the table top. Haven't seen what BNS has done but is by my count this makes the third or fourth LARP rule set Masquerade.

I've seen MET NWoD LARPS done well. Yes Networked games have advantages that troupes don't. But the setting can be easily tweaked to do away with covenants for troupe game.
Also Covenant politics has change a bit in the revised setting. But point is IF BNS is not willing to develop for the NWoD then they should release the rights to someone who does!
Why retain the rights to something that you seem not have an interest in?

[Charlaquin]

That's all very much a matter of taste. By far the most fun I've ever had LARPing was a small Requiem troupe game. About a dozen people were technically involved, but most didn't attend regularly, and on any given session you'd have maybe six people playing.

That said, I think there is a pervasive perception among the WoD LARP community that Requiem doesn't work for LARP, largely due to expectations of how the faction politics are supposed to function that are based on preconceptions left over from Masquerade, and Requiem's own identity crisis it had early in its run. I think second edition has made great strides towards dispelling those assumptions and giving better examples of ways the faction politics can function outside of what is often considered the "standard" domain structure, and showing that it is in fact not all that standard at all.

I can't speak as much to other lines, because I don't have as much experience with them in LARP form. I do remember there was a sizable group of Camarilla members back in Washington who were extremely passionate about W:tF and hated W:tA, but I think that had more to do with the setting in general and less to do with how either worked within the context of LARP.

[Chattnos]

That's all very much a matter of taste. By far the most fun I've ever had LARPing was a small Requiem troupe game. About a dozen people were technically involved, but most didn't attend regularly, and on any given session you'd have maybe six people playing.

That said, I think there is a pervasive perception among the WoD LARP community that Requiem doesn't work for LARP, largely due to expectations of how the faction politics are supposed to function that are based on preconceptions left over from Masquerade, and Requiem's own identity crisis it had early in its run. I think second edition has made great strides towards dispelling those assumptions and giving better examples of ways the faction politics can function outside of what is often considered the "standard" domain structure, and showing that it is in fact not all that standard at all.

I can't speak as much to other lines, because I don't have as much experience with them in LARP form. I do remember there was a sizable group of Camarilla members back in Washington who were extremely passionate about W:tF and hated W:tA, but I think that had more to do with the setting in general and less to do with how either worked within the context of LARP.

As far as the cam concern it varies domain to domain. For example Chattanooga had the hardest time getting an Ancension game going. Players had to to Nashville or Knoxville.
Same with NWoD, Some hate it , some love it.

But we (the fans both networked & troupe) can't develop a 2nd Edition NWoD LARP culture without up to date rules. If the rumours and perceptions are true and BNS has no interest in NWoD why sit on the LARP rights of NWoD? It is a simple question.
By Night Studios needs to state their intent on the NWoD. If they are not interested then let someone else have crack at it.
Don't the dog in the manger!

[RichT]

As much as we want to encourage discussion about the things Onyx Path's member community is concerned about, this is a case where a lot of assumptions are being made here that nobody here has an answer to. If By Night Studios has chosen to use Facebook as their primary platform for community relations then that is where these concerns should be addressed, regardless of anyone's preference for company websites. As for the quote that was cited in the OP, I don't think that is any more useful for knowing BNS's plans for, or their thoughts about, a NWoD LARP ruleset. That quote reflects that same outsider view as I, or anyone not in BNS, could have. I do know that the whole excellent crew that are working on BNS projects are intensely committed to one major release at a time and prefer to focus very directly on that current project, so when they say they haven't been able to give nWoD LARPing much thought, they are not being dismissive but truthful.

[Chattnos]

As much as we want to encourage discussion about the things Onyx Path's member community is concerned about, this is a case where a lot of assumptions are being made here that nobody here has an answer to. If By Night Studios has chosen to use Facebook as their primary platform for community relations then that is where these concerns should be addressed, regardless of anyone's preference for company websites.

Never said Onyxpath had an opinion on this matter. I raised this issue though because here is where the NWoD Community meets and yes BNS has been on both the old and new forums.

Though as a coder and website builder I choose not participate in FB because I know exactly what they are up to. My choice.

As for the quote that was cited in the OP, I don't think that is any more useful for knowing BNS's plans for, or their thoughts about, a NWoD LARP ruleset. That quote reflects that same outsider view as I, or anyone not in BNS, could have. I do know that the whole excellent crew that are working on BNS projects are intensely committed to one major release at a time and prefer to focus very directly on that current project, so when they say they haven't been able to give nWoD LARPing much thought, they are not being dismissive but truthful.

Come on Rich. I appreciate that you as member of the industry have to be mindful of the politics. After all it is a small world you swim in.
But Dave is hardly an outsider. And his observations have merely confirmed a vibe that many of us have gotten from BNS.
They will tease the hell out of any OWoD project they have. But they haven't spilled a drop of ink, digital or otherwise, on NWoD.
And when asked about NWoD on these boards at least they are tight lipped. I think that is very telling.
They could dispel all of these perceptions by making a statement of their intentions.

Look I want to be wrong. I want proof that I'm misreading the situation because I'm a huge NWoD fan.
However I won't be holding my breathe.

[Rose Bailey]

I don't especially want to moderate discussions on other companies' decisions here, and this is clearly a contentious topic. If you'd like to petition By Night, please do it via their social media or e-mail. Thank you for your cooperation.